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Page 2: Messages 56 -100 Click Here (These messages begin on November 1, 2001)

55: 10-31-01 DRAGONSLAYER

Thank you, Elizabeth, for your compliment. Keeping an anti-sb site going is harder than it looks, and we appreciate knowing that you find our site helpful.

54: 10-31-01 ELIZABETH HALLETT

Hello, just want to commend your excellent site. It is so easy to use and so full of information. Thank you! Elisabeth Hallett

53: 10-31-01 TERRIE

Urawarness, it's typical of Indian publishers to charge high fees for their books in the west, no matter how cheap they are in India. Rs400 is about $10 U.S. dollars, rather expensive for a book in India. Air postage is very expensive to the west. Premanand is acting like a typical Indian. Who can't use a little extra money? No doubt Premanand put lots of sweat, time and research into his book, all with no compensation until the book was published and sold. It's his contribution to the exposé.

Many Indians do have the idea that $40 is pennies to the ever-rich Americans. They really don't understand that $40 can be a lot of money to the man in the street.

52: 10-31-01 URAWARENESS

I am a little wary of anything Premanand puts out. His book which sells for rps. 400 in India is being sold in the West for dollars 40.00! Seems a high price to me especially as printing costs are very low in India. Anyway this guy was never a devotee - where does he get his facts from!!!!! Sorry I won't be buying his book.

51: 10-31-01 TERRIE

To Urawareness: Barry Pittard's story is on the Sunrise Ex-Devotees Speak page. The last I was in India (1999) all devotees going into darshan were treated the same: metal detectors, purses looked through...maybe frisking, not sure (don't remember). It makes sense that women are frisked as anything could be hidden beneath saris and long skirts. It makes sense if you fear for your life, that is.

Re: the font size and bold type, if you use Windows, there's a way to set the font so it appears larger on-line. Somewhere in setup there's a way to ask for large fonts. For the time being, we are trying a bold font on this page.

Does anyone reading this chat page have experience going to the ashram as part of a group?

50: 10:31:01 URAWARENESS

re: Ernest C. Owen,

First of all, I'd like to see the bolder point size on this club - it is just so much more easier to read. Your message was interesting to me because it actually told us something about how things are today. I really wish all information was more geared to recent or current state of affairs. I personally think the homosexual thing has been covered enough and details that deal with the ashram, the staff, the way in which devotees are treated, is highly important - nope, top of the list in my opinion - right now.

Considering many of them are Westerners who have to take planes and risk their lives to see SB. (One would think they would be especially looked after by the ashram, not made unwelcome.) I was told there were some 6 body guards around SB nowadays, but then I was told by someone else that was untrue!!!!

I knew the women were being touched, or frisked thoroughly and I knew the excuse given was the threat from the Tamil Tigers. I'm wondering if all the visitors to P.N. are treated this way, or is the treatment specially laid on for overseas devotees only????? I have a feeling that all this extra security is designed to keep Westerners, in particular, away from the ashram. I have an absolutely sure gut feeling that it so.............

Tell you more later why I feel that way. Also, I wrote a post some weeks ago explaining how past London groups got interviews, and was hoping someone would take up the thread, but sadly there was no response. Strange as many of you must have been in some sort of Sai Group at one time!!!! It seems to me that what is needed from everyone is their reporting of what is factual and true, more than just mere points of view.

I'd liked to hear more details of Barry's life with SB and more how he coped when he finally left. Does Barry's full story appear anywhere?

urawareness

49: 10-30-01 SPARROW

Marswalker ... I read your letter on another site about crows in India committing suicide. That is bazarre! Did anyone on the radio show say how they were doing it and were any theories given as to why? Could it be that their brains have been messed up by some sort of pollution?

48: MARSWALKER108

Baba, protect all our loved ones. Click Here for article

47: 10-29-01 ERNEST C. OWEN

Another one of the countless numbers who leave Sai Baba :

A lady we know who has just returned from Prashanthi Nilayam, after some careful critical comments from me before she left, has broken the spell Baba had on her. Now she is only telling persons she can trust, for she has an old friend who is so emotionally attached to Baba that she is wondering how to deal with this without hurting her. This is a common problem after discovering that Baba is not all he cranks himself up to be… how to handle the reoriention towards one’s friends, family and the world in general.

This lady knew about the sexual accusations beforehand, but was inclined not to lay much weight on them for various reasons and possible explanations. These hardly had any influence on her turnaround anyhow. Nor did the dreadful current ashram regime of intrusively feeling the body and looking into everything (even opening personal body belts under one’s clothes) before darshan and massed guards, even a hefty female policewoman in sari snooping amid the ladies now… she learned from one person that bomb threats are the reason (probably the Tamil Tigers, but no visitors are told anything, of course!

Think if people should stay away, what would God Almighty do?). The decisive perceptions in her final switch of faith (after a year of wondering about the allegations) was seeing Baba himself. It awakened the first fortnight she had ever spent at the ashram when she nearly left… before she began to suppress all negative thoughts. The same perceptions returned, Sai Baba’s constant avoidance of the women, a blinkered reflection of the disrespect for women that imbues Indian society – not of a universal acceptance or divine love. Sai Baba prefers men, that is a fact!

Then there is the pomp and glitter in the ashram, the red carpets rolled out and tended so carefully for him to walk on… now an old man, somewhat stooping back, a ravaged face. Baba’s words “Love my uncertainty” only reminded her of the awful predictability of his darshan round, straight to the men, the chit-holders, various persons put in special places by the Seva Dals as usual, and the VIPs.

She reacted to the same old grim facial expressions, which by any standard are not loving! From experience she could now tell to which side he would move next, whom he would stare through, to whom he would say a few words. It became farcical…he was not there for the devotees, they were there as a mirror for him, the super narcissist. She also found herself wondering - were it really true that one shares in Baba’s ‘divine love energy’, why can’t it be recognised in any way? (And I admit that there is far more fanciful talk about it – not least constantly by Baba – than there is evidence of it.

By and large, nothing seems to change there in this respect as time goes on. A few smiles, touching some objects, taking letters… what’s so wonderful about all such things, really? What difference do they actually make other than a temporary feeling of self-satisfaction?). Were it not for Baba’s paranormal powers (which she does not doubt he has), she says, he would certainly not have the following he has. She concluded that Sai Baba has had his chance, and he has failed her test!

46: 10-28-01 SPARROW

Beth ... Here I am. There's a problem in the family and it's taking up most of my time and energy. Thank you for asking about me.

45: 10-26-01 BETH

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabaexposeforum

I just wanted to post this link again for URawareness, Sparrow (? where are you ) and Barry and others who may not be aware of this discussion group. Thank you Barry for your posts. Could you post more often? I think we are in need of your feedback and particular perspective, being in Australia ...and having so many devotee and ex-devotee contacts. It's enlightening for us to know what is going on with all of you in other countries... thanks, Beth

44: 10-24-01 BARRY PITTARD

It is said that some people have left the exposé. I am very glad to say, in a very wide acquaintance, that many former devotees with whom I keep in regular contact show every sign of continuing their commitment. Some go at it still, like a dog gnawing a bone. (I'd rather have a garden to get out into, and some children to play with - oh, I nearly forgot: and a very self-respecting wife, um, to placate!).

Some give whatever time they have in their busy lives for it. A few, because of emotional and physical health reasons have had to seriously curtail their involvement. Occasionally, I find a person who relates, for example: "I wish to leave it up to God, and to ssb's Karma." Or, "I have to get on with my life. There are so many needs that I have to meet, and involvement in the Expose is too demanding, and even causes domestic problems."

Personally, I am much heartened to find individuals whose hearts would rejoice at the words of one of America's truly marvelous women - the hymn writer, novelist, anti-slavery campaigner, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896)

"When you get into a tight place, and everything goes against you, till it seems as though you could not hold on a moment longer, never give up then - for that is just the place and time that the tide will turn."

Of course, it is also possible to display these great qualities OUTSIDE the Expose.

Love,

Barry Pittard, Australia

43: 10-23-01 TERRIE

This letter accompanied the three letters written by Dr. Hislop, newly posted on Sunrise. (Please see the link to the letters on the Links page.) The ex-devotee who sent the letters wishes to remain in the background.

"Attached three letters written by John Hislop in 1981. They come from the files of a former Sai Center president in the early 1980s. They were accompanied by a personal letter from Hislop to the previous president of this Center, who then turned them over to the subsequent president. The letters show how at the time a story of Sai Baba molesting boys was taken up very seriously and how it was dealt with the Sai Organisation's best intentions." Signed (X)

42: 10-22-01 AN EX-DEVOTEE

This is from an e-mail from Michael Goldstein dates September 15:

"A number of reports have been received from devotees indicating that our Beloved Swami prevented many of his devotees from being injured or killed in the World Trade Center where they are employed or had meetings scheduled. His Miraculous Intervention on behalf of His devotees is clearly evident."

My comment: Even though Sai Baba says that, in essence, God is beyond name and form, devotees are so attached to his form that they keep attributing all good things to "Swami," "Baba," etc. Have they stopped to think how egotistical it is to think that those who were saved from the World Trade Center calamity were saved because of their link to Sai Baba?

What about many others, from other religious persuasions or none, who were spared? Is there any special merit belonging to those attached to the Sai Baba form? And - demerit belonging to those not thus attached? Moreover, did "Swami" doom to terrible deaths those he, presumably elected NOT to save? Curiously enough, I personally know of two cases that were miraculously saved that have nothing to do with SB. And I am sure there are many many more.

41: 10-20-01 BARRY PITTARD

Dear All,

I urgently require as many confirmations as possible (from as many countries as possible) that a circular has apparently recently gone out to world leaders of the ss org., signed by World Convenor, Indulal Shah. The gist of it is: "None of you is permitted to speak to the Media."

The more clearly scanned copies as I can come my way, so much the better.

Love, Barry

40: 10-19-01 TERRIE

Dear Everyone:

A reminder to please let Dragonslayer know if you would like this page to be in a bigger font. Please see Message #35.

39: 10-19-01 BARRY PITTARD

Dear All,

My recent computer wipe-out has slowed progress on a three thousand word article - not to mention a few other Expose activities. I now wish to go all out to finish it before Christmas. Although many former devotees have sent me information I require, I want to say how important it is for me to have as many confirmations of data - even of what may appear quite obvious!!! - as possible.

This is because VERY CAREFUL checking/cross-checking, verification, validation is of the first importance. What I have in mind is a very deliberative strategy. As you know, pro ssb forces do, among other things, keep harping on how former devotee activists are liars, disgruntled, etc. I have been collecting documentary evidence of various key leaders' statements of this type. At the same time, I have been compiling and verifying details of cases worldwide where leaders have resigned as a matter of high principle from the ss org.

Dates of resignation, roles, centres, reasons given, etc. My article will relate the leaders' statements to a whole list of former leaders. It will say: for a number of years, there was no question mark about the integrity of these persons. Nor, in their professions, trades and communities has there been or is there now any such question. However, the moment they dissented from the ss org status quo they are being called "Judases," "cawing craws," etc., by ssb himself and alleged by ss org key leaders to be disgruntled, lying, disreputable persons.

Expressive of a deep wish to even slightly add to the fine contributions of Ms Alexandra Nagel of the Netherlands, my article will also suggest an extent of dissent far beyond the scope of The Findings, and the involvement of many well-reputed citizens from many countries who would, in no way, lightly take their concerns to their foreign ministeries, Interpol, parliamentarians, United Nations, quality media, and so on.

I would be grateful to all of you who are able to keep sending me updates of resigned ss org leaders around the world - persons in good standing, as I say, in their own communities. I also very much appreciate scanned copies of utterances of key ss org leaders who are making derogatory remarks about the attempt by former devotees to bring the fact of ssb's molestations, other misconduct, and ss org cover-ups and anomalies to the widest public notice.

Love, Barry

38: 10-19-01 TERRIE

Re: #37 Does anyone's blood run cold besides mine when reading the account of Mario's death? All I can think of are Anthony's words about devotees being crowded together on a lower astral plane, kept from going higher by their tie to sb. Mario was as sincere a devotee as they come. I pray that he has seen the light and has detached from the one he believed to be god incarnate.

37: 10-19-01 BARRY PITTARD

Dear All,

One of our brothers has written the following. I wonder if your own observations, and anyone else you may like to query, corroborate his. Love, Barry

Original Message: To: Pittard, Barry Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 3:00 AM Subject: Re: Mario Mazzoleni

Dear Barry, this is not a private letter. But I am just a little suspicious why people die the way they do around Sai? I am 60 years old and look like 45, many people say and am in perfect physical shape. And yet so many devotees around Sai have horrible accidents and diseases, just like Sai has had. He says he saves them when they recover for awhile, and he blesses them when they go on.

But if these people are truly enlightened and have overcome, should they not be younger and more vital than others their age, and should they not have less disease and disasters in their life? I read Mario's book and the picture on the not so long ago published work shows Mario as a young and vital looking priest, looking probably 40.

What happened? Myself, as soon as Sai stared into my eyes and I touched his feet I came down with a high fever and this started a very long sickness and a cough that would bring me to my knees sometimes, and the cough lasted months. And I might add, I rarely get a cold and am never sick. Many report sickness of the debilatating kind when meeting Sai, all in their many books.

They call it purging karma, but might it be more likely the sickness of astral contamination and vampire control? I am sure it is the later. From the time I broke away from Sai I have slowly overcome all weakness and physical astral bruises and am now in perfect health. As long as I was with Sai I had constant problems out of nowhere. VERY SUSPICIOUS.

Love XXX

(The thoughts in the letter above were generated by the following letter re: the death of Mario Mazzoleni.)

Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:59:34 -0700 From: "Bon Mots" Subject: Passing with full marks, cent per cent.

Pranams,

Those familiar with books about Swami may recall the work of Mario Mazzoleni. Few know Mario suffered a debilitating disease for some seven years sans complaint. This September he and his wife visited Swami. Shortly after his arrival, Mario succumbed to his illness and was admitted to the Super Speciality Hosptial in Puttaparthi. While listening to a friend chant the Gayathri, Mario left the body. His widow Silvia reports that Mario's last words were "At the door of the room, I see Swami..." In the mandir at the time, Swami said to the students, " A great Spirit has left this world." Ashram staff then were given exact instruction from Swami as to every aspect for the funeral at the river bed, including a dhothi from His Hands to cover the body. Jai Siva Sai

36: 10-19-01 KYRA

To Sparrow re. post 19

"Sometimes I think that the ones who left were the "real" devotees, because they really did take what he said seriously, and they really did see the difference between good an evil; dharma and adharma."

Dear Sparrow,

that's beautifully put and utterly true, in my opinion. Thanks for writing that, and thanks for being a real devotee of Consciousness :)

To Anthony re. post 19

"I feel we are not lowering ourselves, we are lowering him. Using other names helps ex-devotees to diminish this molester's status to the level he deserves. There is also another very valid reason not to use his name. His name has an energy with it that links people firmly to him. Even using his full name a few times in a conversation is sufficient to create a link back to him via etheric energy."

Dear Anthony,

I couldn't agree more. I've read that one can call up the etheric energy of any high or low being by meditating on their form or saying their name. I can corroborate also this from personal experience. I've had visionary experiences since I was a kid involving several genuine spiritual masters of different spiritual traditions.

In one instance I was meditating on a Hindu saint's form and name and the saint appeared suddenly during meditation with such clarity and detail (down to tiny folds and wrinkles in her clothing) that it transcended any imaginary mental "seeing." In another instance I was sitting at my sister-in-law's bedside while she was seriously ill. All of a sudden I had a clear and detailed "inner seeing" of a Tibetan lama. I had no idea who he was, or even that he was my sister-in-law's beloved teacher.

For that matter, I didn't even know at the time that my sister-in-law was a Tibetan Buddhist. I recall having the presence of mind to ask the lama on the inner who he was. The reply on the inner was instantaneous. "Nangpa." I later found the term "nangpa" in Sogyal Rinpoche's "Tibetan Book of Living and Dying." "Nangpa" literally means "Buddhist." This great master later came back on the inner to guide me, speaking one Tibetan word at a time, through my eldest son's serious illness.

I was able to "see the spellings of these Tibetan words and translate them on an online Tibetan-English dictionary. This master's guidance was instrumental in stopping my husband and me from going through with spinal cord surgery on our son (who two years later is utterly healthy.) Anyway, be it a true master or the badly permed fraud, I believe that to call on a being or to use their name is to be done with great discretion. To say or write down names of beings with impunity can be playing with fire.

Lots of love, Kyra

35: 10-18-01 TERRIE

Yes, truelight, that does seem to be his agenda: to be worshipped by the entire world. And it seems that he will go to great ends to get that worship, even appearing in dreams long after a devotee has left him and manipulating the sai org to produce great stories about him. I remember someone else on one of the boards said the same thing: sb appeared in a dream, seeming so sweet and wanting only to be loved. Thank (the real) God, that hasn't happened to me.

Re: the font. Dragonslayer has been sick, but he will look into the font as soon as he's able. I am making this paragraph in bold type. Is this better?

This is the next size font up. Is this better than the bold font? Anyone reading this board, please send an e-mail to sunrise telling us what you prefer. Due to the limits of the web program, there are only these two choices: Bold or a font this size.

34: 10-18-01 TRUELIGHT

Much has been said about the power of 'the name' of sb. I too no longer use the mantra, nor his name. His ability to link in to our consciousness is marked. Even if one is concerned about a present devotee this allows him (sb) to link in through our concern. I think this is because we believe it possible, and so create that reality in the subtle.

I felt very concerned about a devotee the other day - remembering the anguish with which many devotees long for contact and grace. I felt concerned that those who were my friends I no longer see, or speak to, and I fear they are lost to another spiritual dominion - one in which the followers are doomed by being subsumed in a greater will.

That evening, after over a years absence he (sb) came again in dream. Trying to persuade me that he really is such a sweet nice guy. Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. He finished off with a little sexual scenario warning me not to fall into the sinfulness of the senses. But I see that as part of his modus operandi. He is the GOD who is saving us from sin and hell. Using the carrot and the stick to get us to worship him. (THAT is his main agenda - to be worshipped by the whole world - does that remind you of anything, anyone?) Unfortunately he has blotted his copybook and the ink is all smudged. And he has lost his status in my mind as 'god' what ever else he may be. Truelight

33: 10-16-01 URAWARENESS

Your question about the Golden Age....Sai Prediction. Sai Prediction.

The Golden age had only just begun. This is only the beginning of another time in the world. The entire process would take up to 12 years. What SB said - on his 75th birthday the plane would take off and there would only be a handful of people on board. I believe in a way that has happened. Many people visiting him now ---- leave with feelings of being disconnected. It's as if he is at a far distance.

There seems a shift physically and through the emotionally link that kept us tied to him. I'd say SB is letting many people go at this time. He is not encouraging them to stay. The Sai Movement may carry on - but SB himself has certainly changed. There are many people trying to read so much into the predictions. I suppose because SB doesn't given a clear explanation of them to begin with. This also happened when he told everyone he was God. He actually said 'I am God and so are you.' He told people that I am everywhere, I do everything.

But to be fair, he was not talking about himself physically, but the source of light which is in all of us. But he has called himself the Avatar of the Age ............no comment. I know I seem to be taking his side in this debate. I only do so because I see many wrong quotes about him. Or quotes that have been changed to suit the author. That's not fair.

P.S. (Your font is very small. It looks to me like size 12 or even smaller. So hard to read. I have a pretty powerful computer too.) I know for a fact that SB does not need to speak to everyone physically. He can easily reach people on a telepathic level and speak with them there. I've have direct experience of this. Thus, no need for interviews for them. So what has happened here? I'd say there is the outer and inner SB. He is an enigma to most people. urawareness

32: 10-15-01 DRAGONSLAYER

U. R. Wareness, about the small type: If you are talking about the font on the screen when you are typing, this is the fault of your e-mail program. You should be able to make the font bigger. When you want to send a message, Sunrise calls up each person's e-mail program or the mail program in Microsoft Explorer or Netscape.The only font we have control over is the font on this Sunrise page you are reading now. Is this font a good size, or would you like to see a bigger font? How about everyone else? Is the font on this page hard to read? (It will partly depend on your computer screen.)

Very interesting story about Aime Levy. Does anyone have experience with USA groups that always got interviews?

31: 10-15-01 U.R. WARENESS

I'm still having trouble with the small type. Can't it be changed to several points larger?

I first came suspicious of devious'doings'way back in 1992 when certain London groups were given anything up to three interviews on one visit. I was to soon learn that the Group Leader, an old guy by the name of Aime Levy (friend of Goldstein) charged up to pounds 100 above the trips expenses. His groups were always huge, because everyone wanted interviews and everyone 'understood' Levy got them......

He would take up to 120 people per trip and spit them into smaller groups of about 60 people. I thought the extra money from the groups went into his own pocket but perhaps he 'donated' it to the Sai Movement. Anyway, he had interviews with SB on every single visit for a decade. What amazed me more than Aime Levy's dishonesty, was the dishonesty of the group members - many knew exactly what was going on and encouraged this fiddle.

Some elderly ladies would take an 'Amie Levy' trip every single year, pay the extra money. just to get an interview with SB. There were more honest groups here, but they rarely ever received interviews. The interview system seemed to have nothing to do with goodness, but we were told that interviews were granted on the basis of your karma. Did this happen in your country? Did you have such groups there?

I never could understand why only a few selected people were granted interviews over and over again, while the rest of us nothing at all. It never made sense. On a different note, I have seen SB pick out individual people from darshan and give them interviews. I know they were not dishonest types - they were not donating large sums. I always thought SB was playing these people along somehow........... I hope I have this message correct but as I've already mentioned before, the type is very small and I don't have much time to correct mistakes. Sorry. U.R.Wareness

30: 10-15-01 DRAGONSLAYER

A Dream: Some ex-devotees have been feeling that the sb exposé is of minor importance compared to the terrorist threat to the world since the September 11 attacks. As if to let me know what is really going on, I had a chilling dream last night. I was in a large city. A large religious organization was all over the place. A young woman wanted to get out of the organization, but the org was unwilling to let her go. They had captured her and chained her up in a prison-like place. Somehow she was able to ask me for help. I got in touch with her parents, and the parents came into the city.

They were also asking for my help. I realized that it was very dangerous. Leaders of the group were willing to do anything to keep their power. When the dream ended, we were trying to figure out ways to release the young woman. When I woke up, the feeling I had was that right now the terrorists have our attention. We must be patient and not give up on our exposé efforts. I had the feeling that we have to remember how we were foolded and entreapped for so long. The sb movement is extremely dangerous for entrapped souls. It is not only that sb is molesting young children. The truth is that the entire movement is very sinister. We all have to remember this.

29: 10-13-01 TERRIE

Urawareness, about the Name, maybe you should re-read Anthony's post #18. I know when I first became an ex-devotee, hearing The Name really bothered me. So I started to call him joe with a small "j." That did indeed decrease his power aura, as we all know the saying, "Just a plain joe."

Re: my daughter, we were all devotees together for many years. We would spend time together at PN and Whitefield. But we (my husband and I) became ex-devotees after hearing about the molestations last year. We live in the U.S., but our daughter has lived in India for many years, completely shielded from the recent news about sb. She lives where everyone believes the party line of the Central Trust. We correspond with her about non-controversial subjects. I tried to present her with some expose material, but she was scornful and unbelieving. So why argue? To each his/her own time.

About predictions, yes, sb has predicted some events that have happened. But he also predicted many events that did not happen, such as the new "Golden Age of peace and harmony," which was supposed to start on his 75th birthday. sb has made many contradictory statements. Have you checked out the page on Sunrise that deals with his contradictions and red flags?? Go back to the main Links Page from here and check out the "Sai Baba's Teachings" page.

28: 10-13-01 SPARROW

Urawareness ... Not question in my mind that he is very powerful. No question at all. That was the hardest part for me: coming to terms with the knowledge that he has these siddhic powers, yet has not risen above the demands of the ego and the senses. I've known many people who could fortell the future to some extent (though none, including him, who were correct 100% of the time) .

I've also known people who had the abilility to heal, though again, they weren't always effective. He has been completely off the mark in many things that he has told people. Something as big as what's going on in the world right now would probably have come into the minds of many folks with psychic abilities. Bottom line: he's not who he says he is. He is an enigma, I'll grant you that. He is, in certain ways, developed way beyond the rest of us, but not neccessarily to the good.

Brilliant musicians and star athletes have gifts that put them above or beyond almost everybody else in the particular area in which they excell, but if they are lacking in character they are no more advanced ... as souls ... than the rest of us. We can enjoy their art, but let's not fall into the trap of worshipping them.

27: 10-13-01 URAWARENESS

The name is urawareness - not unawareness - I really don't care about the mistake on the other board. It was trifling.. However, I think you should not lower yourselves in public by slandering SB with stupid names. It reflects right back at you...... What you call him in private is your own affair but here where a mature attitude is called for. - No essential - think about it. If you continue to use silly names, viewers to the club will think you are school age - won't give them a lotta confidence to post.

I never meditated night and morning after the first year. I never became a veggie. either. Nevertheless, I still turned to SB for everything to do with my life. I lived in hope that the ashram would change and his movement would change. They would all get their just dues. But that never happened. The fear was the worse thing - inwardly not agreeing with others in the movement. Being afraid to speak out - to put your doubts on the line......

By the way Terrie why is your daughter there and you are an active !anti! She must be very devoted to be living there. Do you speak to each other? What confused me most about SB, was the predictions. I found them mostly trustworthy. He did predict the coming difficulties in the world. He predicted that America was in for a hard time. He said something very strange a year or two ago. It baffled us. He said, "you'd better all get here by September, otherwise you won't be able to - the planes won't land."

I understand foretelling the future doesn't make him God, but I still believe he is an advanced soul. He is an enigma. I'd say take the best of the teachers and leave the rest. It has to be said, that the SB story is not yet over. Wait and see. It is always darkest before the dawn. btw, for you people in USA. - Don't live in fear. We in London have lived with bomb threats and other sorts of horrors for years now. We don't let it get in our way - we carry on.....carrying on. Yaaahhhh!

26: 10-13-01 TERRIE

LOST MESSAGES: Either I or the sunrise server has caused some messages to be lost during download. At least two messages I saw on the download list never appeared in the Sunrise mailbox. We are very sorry if your message has been lost. It's partly due to the large number of advertisements sent to the mailbox, which seem to stall the download. Does anyone know how to stop spam ads from coming into mailboxes? If it's not sb spammers, it's the ad people!!

25: 10-12-01 CARLOS

Hello to all, Glad to see action again, Terrie im glad you are feeling better , you helping the board is extremely important,dragonslayer im sure god will bless all you do to expose the parthi fake. Sanjay good to see you are here,it seems to me in other boards people won't forgive if you are not agreeing with them.

We have to pull together to try to expose sb, some get away just because hari has a different point of view in some cases,some others dont accept people could have been wrong in the past and now want to help. This shows us sb's influence was not the best, we havent even learned to love each other, to help all. This is the real test, were we following a form or were we really changing our way of life?

If the first is true now is the time to follow that higher self ,love the people that are being hurt by sb,and expose him left and right, i think if we were able to be devoted to him for so long, we should now be devoted to the expose. We probably help lots of people get into the sb org, we did it in good faith,so now that we Know what he is up to,we have a personal commitment to help those people we once help get in . When i mention we havent learned the lesson yet , i include myself as the first one that hasnt. We soon will see how the sb experience is going to help us in life, winners are always looking for more ,for the truth, nobody will ever manage our lives again.

love to all, carlos

24: 10-12-01 TERRIE

We have some name confusion here. Thanks for pointing it out, Beth. Messages have been coming in from "Urawareness" or "Urwareness." I guess the name is "UrAWAREness??" There was someone who posted on the other boards who used the name "UNawareness." So we accidentally used that name for URawareness's posts. Anyhow, Urawarenss, is it AWAREness or UrWareness?? Or am I just totally mixing everyone up? Maybe you can use another name so we don't mix you up with unawareness??

23: 10-12-01 URAWARENESS

I guess I am sending out confusing messages!! Sorry about that. I am neither for or against Sai Baba.....I am totally confused at the moment. What I am sure about is that no one seems to be the better for visits to SB! What I am feeling ---- is terribly sorry for myself at times. urwareness

22: 10-12-01 URAWARENESS

Dear D.Slayer, Yes, you need a bigger font - it is hard to correct the small type on this one. urwareness

21: 10-12-01 BETH

Sanjay, thank you for clearing that up about you NOT being Sathyastra. Now I'm very curious as to who Sathyastra is/was. Haven't seen him around lately. I wonder if he's quietly re-thinking his devotee status. And Terrie, your story about your granddaughter reminds me of my story. My daughter and I lived with my mom for a while when my child was young. I had a big picture of Baba in my room. My mother would often come in a turn the picture to the wall. I always felt the need to apologize to Baba for her behavior. She couldn't stand him. I guess my mother's intuition is superior to mine.

20: 10-12-01 BETH

Oh great...some people are coming back. I too, am turned off by the meaness and violence I see on the other boards...for a long time I could not understand what caused people to act that way over this whole thing, but now I think I know. Eve, thank you for your compliment, but I have to apologize, because I feel that sometimes I, too, have stooped to this level, to sarcasm and meanness in some of my posts ( I tend to be sarcastic).

It arises out of frustration. Also because of the following: I think that I have been through all the "stages" that one is supposed to experience after a shock or a grief experince...that is, I've been through the denial, the shock, the grief and the acceptance and the forgiveness, but I never went through the "anger" stage. I think I am going through that now. I never got angry at Baba. Now, when I go and read the websites, I see the sadism, the deceit, the "control", the bullying, the out and out "evil" if you will...and now I get mad and sometimes wish to shove it down the throats of those in denial or those who refuse to go investigate for themselves...(for example, "Ohio", if any of you are following my posts on the other boards.

That particular person has been spamming for so long, I just had to try to crack them open...using any means possible). Sometimes people just HAVE to be insulted in order to get them to wake up. But I only insult the people who are being mean themselves and ignorant. (LOL) So all, forgive me while I go through my "anger" stage. Do you really think Sanjay is Sathyastra? Does anybody know?? What about you Hari? Are you still there? I was on the Lane board in the very beginning when the guys were really giving it to Sathyastra.

I often stood up for him back then , or should I say "stood beside him". I could tell he was an intelligent guy, who was just defending what he believed in. I can certainly forgive him for all his angry comments...can't believe that he finally came around. Unawareness, I don't think anyone over on this sunrise board is out of line or childish ...we would just like to have civil discussions and/or debates if necessary. Terrie, I think Unawareness and Urawareness are two different people...I think??? I haven't seen urawarness on the boards lately.

19: 10-12-01 SPARROW

Urawareness, your last letter could have been written by me. And yet, there are people who have stayed with him who say that the exes "never were real devotees", or "were just looking for an excuse to leave anyway, and the molestation stories gave them an out". I thought of him every waking moment and did everything he said to do visa-vis diet and what not.

I'd arise painfully early each AM to meditate for a hour and then tried to get in another hour at night. I hoped I wouldn't outlive him because I couldn't stand the thought of being in a world without him. How ridiculously sad! Sometimes I think that the ones who left were the "real" devotees, because they really did take what he said seriously, and they really did see the difference between good an evil; dharma and adharma. ... Sparrow

18: 10-12-01 ANTHONY THOMAS

From Anthony Thomas To Urawareness - post 11

I feel we are not lowering ourselves, we are lowering him. Using other names helps ex-devotees to diminish this molester's status to the level he deserves. There is also another very valid reason not to use his name. His name has an energy with it that links people firmly to him. Even using his full name a few times in a conversation is sufficient to create a link back to him via etheric energy. There is absolutely no doubt this occurs, though I realise it is hard for some people to believe such things are possible. Of course, you could try it and see that it happens!! but I wouldn't advise it. Then you have to get untangled out of his energy again. Never an easy task!

17: 10-11-01 DRAGONSLAYER

It is so good to see all our favorite people posting again. I have to apologize that I have not kept up with the board as much as should.

To tell the truth I am not offended by Sanjay's hairy git. I would be offended if it was the language of some of the Yahoo boards. Personally I find Sanjay's contributions to be humorous and insightful. On any board it is difficult to know the intention of each person who posts. But for now I will accept who everyone claims to be. The miracle of the board is that we can share with each otherour feelings of betrayal and despondency. Our love for each other as brothers and sisters is our hope.

16: 10-11-01 TERRIE

Hi Eve. It's nice to see a new name here. Are you still a devotee? It sounds like you are. I was a diehard devotee for more than 25 years. Thanks for the compliments about my posts. I try to be understanding and helpful, but don't always make it. I have a staunch devotee daughter living in Puttaparthi.

15: 10-11-01 TERRIE

Hello Sanjay! I'm somewhat better, but not feeling totally well yet. Mostly I notice that it's hard to think though thoughts and come to any conclusion. But I think I will be helping Dragonslayer with this discussion page because he's new to the boards, though he's not a new ex-devotee. I really couldn't stomach the spamming on the regular boards anymore, and was totally disgusted at being deleted from Afshin's board after I sent people there from Anthony's board. So I don't plan on posting on the two older Yahoo boards anytime soon. But I'll check out the new board in your post, Sanjay. Yes, the betrayal we all experience when we learn the truth about joe is the most crushing feeling of all.

Unawareness, my experience was pretty much like yours. We felt so special that we were among the chosen ones that knew God was on the earth. But...along with the floating feelings and feeling special were other things that weren't so good. I often felt depressed and lacking in energy. I couldn't meditate for very long at one time. I would wake up at night and feel anxious and threatened. I didn't know that all these problems were linked to being a devotee until after I had separated from sb. Then I knew when those feelings disappeared.

Children are often wiser than we are. For several months my young 12 year old granddaugher stayed at my house and slept in the room that was usually mine. It had a big picture of joe over the bed. She always felt afraid in that room and insisted on leaving the door open and the hall light on. I remember feeling mildly insulted since we were among the "chosen" devotees of sb. How could she feel frightened in a house of God? Sparrow has an interesting story about her young daughter also, who is a teenager.

14: 10-11-01 SANJAY DADLANI

Hi everyone! I'm glad to see some action on this board. I thought that the idea to move away to another board because of the spammer unwittingly killed this board, so I'm glad to see that people are posting here again, as well as familiar faces like Beth and Terrie. Urawareness: Hi there! How are you? I was interested to read your feelings on the QT board and here too. I feel that we have much in common, in fact everyone has much in common as we all felt "floating on air" when we first came to SB and now we feel so cheated. I think I brought it up in a few posts on the QT board but that discussion thread seems to have been killed now since the boards have changed.

Terrie: Hi! How are you feeling? Have you got over your flu yet? I hope you are better. Eve: I gather that you are still a Sai devotee when you use the words "If I were thinking of leaving SB". Well if that is true then I quite understand your "hurt" at my use of such words as "Hairy", etc. Now, the reason I use such words is that I am basically full of hatred for him right now. I have huge arguments with my family on practically a daily basis. It turns MY stomach to even look at his pictures or books.

After 10 years of devoting my life to his "mission" and trying to live upto his standards, it is the worst betrayal possible to find out that he is NOT what he claims to be. It's such a painful experience that I do not feel like addressing him by his name. "Sai Baba" is not even his real name anyway, it is Sathyanarayana Raju. The "SB" title is a self-proclaimed one. Also, other devotees feel the same way as I do and have chosen their own names for that fellow. Among the funniest are "Joe" and "Fuzzy-Wuzzy". I find that if I address him as "hairy" or whatever, it feels so much better to insult him rather than praise him. That may sound somewhat childish, but hey, I'm undergoing severe mental trauma here. Furthermore, I am NOT Sathyastra. I have NEVER found the need to take on another identity and nor will I ever see the need to do so in the foreseeable future. Thanks. Sanjay

P.S. A new board has been started up at: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabaexposeforum Everyone is welcome to participate.

13: 10-11-01 DRAGONSLAYER

Urwereness, about the font: Do you mean the font on this board is too small and you would like to see a bigger font??

12: 10-11-01 TERRIE

Urawareness, I am happy to see you posting here! I haven't felt much like posting on the boards myself lately. As a matter of fact, I'm only posting on this board for the time being. Your post raises so many important points. I will have to take some time to reply.

11: 10-11-01 URAWARENESS

I really don't think there is any use in words such as 'hairy git' to describe S.B. Why not call him by his name, Sai Baba. That's his name or his chosen name. When we use small letters, sb, or slander to describe him we are lowering ourselves too. I'd like to see a club where he is discussed, yes, but not to have to listen to anymore childish language. It's a turn off.

Sincere people wishing to find the truth, or wishing to listen to sincere viewpoints from club members here, might be put off by childish speak...They might think you are playing around with absolutely nothing better to do. To get back to the subject of Sai Baba.

I too, found my initial years with Sai Baba to be the most happy of my life. I felt like floating away on a cloud. I felt special. Quiet frankly, I could see nothing of interest outside of Sai Baba. At that time I knew nothing about, siddhis, powers, kundalini, or anything like that. I had only my Christian faith to draw on for comparison. Therefore, I thought Sai Baba's miracles were exactly the same as Jesus's miracles. I thought Sai Baba would be exactly the same as Jesus in everyway.

Of course I did, I knew only that. When I first visited Sai Baba, I became even more 'in love.' with him. I had lovely experiences there at the ashram P.N. I found myself consumed with love for him - this proved detrimental to my life in other ways, with my family, relations and others. In 1991, I took up charity work with a passion. I wanted to follow Sai Baba's every word. I wanted to learn how to evolved and become closer to him.

But as the years went by, I became an outcast with the Sai Baba Movement. Why? because I was too honest. I found out that honesty and the Sai Movement had nothing much in common. I became afraid, lonely, and totally bewildered. There seemed to be two Sai Baba - as far as I was concerned, the Sai Baba within, and the outer Sai Baba. I suppose after the 1993 shooting, everything became clearer. The introduct ion of VIP places for rich people, or those that worked for the Sai Movement.

The mean-minded seva dal - who delighted in bossing us around while making us fearful. They were never, ever corrected by Sai Baba. The construction of rooms etc. in P.N. which were sold off to devotees at a high price. Then the donor thing - so many honest people losing their money by supporting this movement. It is such a shame because I never wanted to do anything but good in the world. Now I feel shattered. I expect time heals, but with something as big as this, I doubt one heals quickly. It has put me off God altogether,how can a God let his people be so misdirected by miracles and powers? I know some people here think he is a fake, that definitely was not my experience - just the opposite, I'd never seen anyone with the power he has - and uses. Thank you.

Sorry about grammar, spelling, but this font is rather small to correct - don't you agree?

9: 10-11-01 DRAGONSLAYER

Dear Eve, The post you mention must be one of those copied from the QT board, since Sanjay hasn't sent any posts to Sunrise. Thanks for pointing out the language problem. We certainly DON'T want the tone of this board to be lowered by the kind of language we've seen on the Yahoo boards. We hope to hear more from Beth, Terrie and Sparrow.

8: 10-11-01 EVE

Dear Folk, It is a good idea to start a new club, but is it wise to allow the tone of the club to be lowered by mere childish slander? I find Sanjay's post with language like 'hairy git' - unnecessary gutter language. I'd like to see less 'hairy gits' in Sanjay's posts, it turns my stomach. I still have my doubts about him anyway, I've a feeling he previously used the alias, 'Sathyastra.' (they write the same way). The tone of Beth, Terries, and Sparrrows posts are kind and gentle -and at a different level than those posted on Yahoo. If I were thinking of leaving SB, I'd enjoy reading their posts. They have something positive to offer. Best Wishes, Eve

7: 10-10-01 BETH

I miss everyone. Please come back...LOL !! Dragonslayer...I feel like I need to borrow your name...I am fighting off a spammer on the other QT boards...LOL. It's ok, I'm enjoying the challenge, but I wish there were some others on there too. Have a nice vacation everyone...I'll see you soon, yes? Love, Beth

6: 10-09-01 DRAGONSLAYER

Thanks Kyra. We have some interesting letters/articles to post.....have been a bit short of time. There is a new letter from Dr. Goldstein to devotees that we'll try to post tomorrow.

5: 10-09-01 KYRA

Dear Dragonslayer et al, Much success to you in the upcoming spammer-free version of the QT board. I have deep respect for the work you do. Much love, Kyra

4: 10-7-01 ANTHONY THOMAS

Hi from Anthony Thomas

I would like to thank with all my heart, the mediator who handled of the sb - anti christ QT board so brilliantly in my absence, despite the continued heavy spamming attempts. I will resurrect the board when I return home from working away - and will notify this fact via the sunrise website. I would also like to thank the Sunrise website and Dragonslayer, for their willingness and persistence in provided a safe alternative for people to continue to air their views - and in not allowing the spammer to hinder the expose of this 'maniac let loose on the world'. Nothing on Earth will stop it now, with such dedicated people determined to get the truth out there and free up these millions of people who don't even know they need freeing. This is typical of most cult situations of brainwashing. __

3: 10-06-01 ANTHONY THOMAS

Hello everyone - from Anthony Thomas

I would like to ask that we all keep in mind the important issue of exposing sb. Let us continue to be aware of the immense importance of what this guy is REALLY doing. For me the issue of sb does not 'pale into insiginificance compared to the current world issue'. Let us not allow our personal views concerning the current world situation affect our goal to expose him.

There is a choice now being offered to the people of the world of whether they choose to go into their hearts with proceed with compassion, love and understanding and to accept responsibility for our failure as a people of this planet to care as much for the suffering and needs of humanity as we do for our race ahead in technology. It could be said we have more attention on the latest technology in our homes and offices, genetically modified food, cloning experiments of humans and animals, etc. and are preoccupied with this to the extent that we often have no idea of what is happening to the little old lady that lives two houses from us, let alone the pain and suppression that is going on in many countries of the world, from Tibet to Zimbabwe. Please keep up the work of exposing him. The world situation has not changed the number of people who are under the control of sb.

2: 1-05-01 BARRY PITTARD

Dear Terrie, Anthony, Dragonslayer,

Congratulations to you all at QT and Sunrise for bouncing back, and quickly. These are the very best times - so terrible yet so challenging to spirits that will not be overcome - for bouncing back. It is not the time for the triumph of bullies - whether they come in the form of small time spammers or bigtime terrorists, or large scale, serial sexual molesters such as the Supreme Poseur of Puttaparthi. It is a time for their comeuppance. Dharma protects those who protect the Dharma. Love, Barry Pittard

1: 10-05-01 TERRIE

I found this quote a few days ago in PHOENIX RISING by Mary Summer Rain. For me at least, her words added some understanding to my years as a sb devotee:

“Spritual advancement comes through the tiresome exercise of free will. Spiritual advancement comes through the correct choices of that free will and through the long suffering of the physical BECAUSE of those correct choices. Spiritual advancement is not a paved road. It is literally strewn with dead-ends, high walls, and dark pitfalls. It is the trail of long suffering and tears, disappointments, and rejections. You inherently know in your heart if you are walking the trail to advancement or if you are casually strolling down the shaded sidewalk of easy street.” (Page 51)

Introductory Message: October 4, 2001

Dear friends,

Welcome. I'm Dragonslayer, and I have been asked to moderate this discussion board for Sunrise. I was a devotee for about 25 years. I helped to found a Sai group in 1976, made two trips to India, and have some intimate knowledge of the inter workings of the sai organization.

Unfortunately the quick topic board has been corrupted by those who feel they can destroy our dedication to truth and justice and drive us from the field of battle. We will not surrender.. This will be a safe space where only sincere and thoughtful messages will be published.

If you feel in tune with this approach, please email your message.

In Divine Friendship,

Dragonslayer

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are some of the final messages posted on the QT-sb-anti christ? board. There were some good discussions that were cut off by spam posts. We might want to go back and pick up some of the conversation threads. Posters: Andries, Sparrow, Beth, Sanjay, Dennis, Terrie, unawareness

urawareness 1394

10-02-2001 12:33 PM ET (US)

Hello,

He actually said the new golden age would start in around 12 years after the turn of the century.

urawareness

1393 10-02-2001 12:29 PM ET (US)

After years of praying to Sai Baba, I no longer do so. Sadly I can't pray anymore to any God. I can't make up my mind if there is a personal God or not. I guess at the moment I think not. I hope that my 'Godless' feelings are temporary. Perhaps as I build a new life, new meanings will emerge, new faith and hope too. It is hard to live without something to believe in.

Some people say 'believe in yourself,' well yes, we should, but most of us want something more -

Life after Sai Baba, (I am not an ex or an anti, just removed by some degrees) is not easy. I miss having him to talk to inside. The world is colder now, darker even. It is not the world I want, but it is probably a more realistic world.

For years I placed all my hopes and trust in S.B. and thought in time he would transform not only his ashram, staff, devotees, but the world and of course me too. This sincere hope of mine, remained unfulfilled and eventually died a tearful death.

Trying to fatham out SB, was doing me no good at all. I only got more and more confused.

The first thing I decided upon after realising I had to take command of my own life, was to move. I'd never enjoyed U.K.... I felt a new home somewhere else, would be more fruitful for getting myself together. I could establish new links in somewhere new. Take up an entirely new way of living. Perhaps do something daft like ballroom dancing..... Anything that would make me joyful. So, in good faith, I've put my house on the market hoping it will sell soon.

While I am waiting for the chance of a new life, I am busy finding new hobbies, and returning to my former ones. I think one of the most important steps in this phrase of my life, was to throw away most of my spritual books - not that they were bad, but I simply had no use for them anymore. I'd read everything spiritual under the sun anyway. I've given up most new age practices too, except for yoga.

I sometimes think that S.B. wants us to feel abandoned, shocked, and dismayed by him. By doing so he frees us emotionally and physically from his form, thus also freeing us from his movement and all the rest that never made any sense anyway. It's a bit like a wake up call to find the God within.

"We are one," I've heard from many spiritual sources. -But we can't find the 'one,' while busy looking outside of us for answers.

But first we have to pass through the grieving, don't we?

Marswalker108 1392

10-02-2001 11:48 AM ET (US)

Dear All,

A little over 2 years ago I attended my last Sai conference and retreat in Texas. Little did I know at the time that soon I would become an ex-devotee of Fuzzy Wuzzy after being loyal to him for 27 years.

At this Sai conference a prominient devotee from Oregon who has been to Prashanthi over a hundred times was the featured speaker. I definitely remember her speaking about Fuzzy Wuzzy's predictions for the future. In 2 years time, the whole world was to be at pease, noticeable by people all over the world. Fuzzy Wuzzy, have you you lost your touch concerning your ability of prophecy??! I thought you were the God of all Gods, an avatar of Krshna and Rama, and the Father who sent sent jesus Christ on earth!

Best Wishes,

Dennis J Hanisch

A Sparrow 1389

10-02-2001 12:54 AM ET (US)

Sanjay, your post#1360 really touched me. I'm sure you expressed the feelings of many exxies. You're right, too, that there was some ego in thinking of ourselves as the chosen ones. When the day came when he would appear on every TV screen w/o them even having to be turned on, and his face would clearly be seen in the sky ... WE would known about him for years. But there's no sense in beating ourselves for having egos. I've never known anyone who didn't have one.

Terrie, Beth's right about your getting your kick in the behind. It just took 20 or 30 years. We always wonder about why God doesn't do this or that, but when this or any life is over these dilemmas will be infinitesimal specks in the never beginning and never ending journey of the soul.

Sanjay Dadlani 1378

10-01-2001 06:18 AM ET (US)

Another point of view as to WHY we were deluded by this hairy git, is probably because he flattered us so much. First he tells us that we're lucky to know of him and that implies that he's a hidden incarnation (for now) and that his teachings are actually the supreme truth, despite the fact that you cannot understand a word of it sometimes. Then he says that anything that you do in connection with "God" (sadhana) is good because you're "getting there".

Now if anyone is actually interested in Vedic culture, they will hear stories of the great Rishis who medidtated in the forest for millions of years and practised lifetimes of severe austerity just so they could get an experience of God and spiritual truths so as to write into scripture and make the Vedas. What a tough thing it must have been.

But Hairy Baba will tell you that you do not have to go to the forest (who wants to go there anyway?), it is perfectly OK to rent a hall and perform bhajan for a couple of hours, eat a tiny pinch of vibhuti and then go home and put your feet up in front of the TV and smoke your cigarette. Oh, and if you feel like it, hang around after the bhajan and disobey my teaching of not speaking to others, and if you have nothing else to do then help the other guys pack up their mikes and stuff. That's your seva for the week, good on ya, have a pat on the back.

And that's your spiritual advancement.

There is so much of flattery. Half the time he spends flattering us, and the rest of the time he spends criticising us. In exactly how many discourses does he whine about how many of his devotees do not follow his teachings? Last year he publicly complained that he has been teaching for around 60 years and now he's getting fed up because no one's following it. Also, recently he's decided that he's gonna deny padnamaskar to the devotees. Who wants to touch his hairy smelly feet anyway? I actually got sick of the constant criticism which we are indoctrinated to believe that he is MOULDING us. Moulding us into what exactly? Mindless slaves?

Let's discuss more about this.

Sanjay

1377 10-01-2001 06:06 AM ET (US)

Terrie:

>> Why did divine incarnations come so long ago? You are right, Sanjay, the main reason so many of us jumped on joe's bandwagan was the great desire to be close to God, to see God and touch God, to know that he/she was really there. This doesn't seem fair. Wouldn't you think that God him/herself would not let us be so deceived? <<

That's what I was trying to analyse when I mentioned the psychology of the devotees. If you seriously think about it, it's actually a hidden form of racism.

The idea: "Ha ha, I know about God's incarnation on earth and YOU don't, ha ha!" Some devotees are actually like that and the attitude is somewhat nauseating. As I said earlier, Hairy tells his devotees that they are lucky to know of his advent and that implies that they are slightly more spiritually advanced than like, the rest of humanity. So some egoistic neophyte will exert a pompous attitude believing himself to be more spiritually advanced. And do you remember what the "elders" in your center advised you to do when you told them that you were unsuccessful in "preaching" about Hairy?

"Never mind, leave them. They don't understand. Perhaps one day."

How egoistic! And then they are supposed to be following Hairy's non-egoistic teachings, ha!

Let's discuss this, all of us. Let's discuss this devotee psychology and we'll find some new insights. Even thinking about it makes me feel like laughing. :) As to your question about how God would allow us to be deceived; it seems that there have been plenty of warnings here and there about how false prophets and incarnations would rise up in the future.

I notice that Beth provided one from the Bible just now, and I can assure you that there are similar warnings in other scriptures too, even Islamic. That's why I have fallen in love with the Vaishnava faith, because it has given me the answers to every question that I ever had, which is something that Hairy could not provide. I mentioned in an earlier post that it is widely believed that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the avatar of the Kali Yuga and the reincarnation of Krishna, with plenty of evidence to back it up. He made an interesting comment:

"kali kale nama-rupe krishna avatara"

"In the age of Kali, Krishna descends as His own Name."

This fits in perfectly well within the Vedic tradition as we all know that the methods for attaining God-realisation have varied during the four Yugas. Meditation, sacrifices, deity worship and then congregational chanting. Also, this proves Krishna's non-mundane nature by stating that Krishna's Name is exactly the same as Krishna Himself due to inconceivable spiritual potencies. Another interesting observation that Mahaprabhu made was:

"avatara nahi kame ami avatara"

"The [REAL] avatar will never declare himself to be an avatar"

How's that for a red flag, huh Dennis?? LOL!!

>> But, Sanjay, this is a problem for you because you believe that God has a physical form. And with that conviction, not having God here on the earth now is more painful. <<

Actually, in the ultimate and highest realisation, the advancement and maturation of one's own devotion is achieved so that one attains the realisation that God posseses a transcendental spiritual form and not a physical one, although at certain periods of time He may descend as an avatar, and that form is also spiritual and not physical. I have to admit that I do feel a little cheated.

Terrie you once mentioned that some former devotees feel a total void because they have nothing to do when they lose their faith in Hairy. I still feel sorry for them. I guess I feel quite lucky because I feel that God took care of me by slowly preparing me for this event. No wonder that Srila Prabhupada never told me anything even when I directly asked him!

Sanjay

Beth 1376

10-01-2001 12:22 AM ET (US)

<<Wouldn't you think that God him/herself would not let us be so deceived? I think I read in one of Yogananda's books that the said the greatest sin of all is betrayal. I was surprised that betrayal might be considered worse even than murder perhaps>>

No, everybody has to learn discernment and discrimination in this world. and the only way one can see truth is to be fooled by falseness... I have a whole lifetime of trusting the wrong people myself...lol...and I think I'm wiser for it. I personally believe that betrayal IS one of the biggest sins ...everytime I hear of a man cheating on his wife...(or anyone betraying the trust of another human soul)I think of the inredible heavy karma that is.

Beth 1375

10-01-2001 12:11 AM ET (US)

Terrie, in answer to your question "why for so long was I allowed to live in delusion"

nothing is wrong with you. here's another bible quote I found..Matthew 24:24 (re: "signs"in the "last days") "For there will arise false christs and lying prophets, and they will show signs and great wonders so as to mislead many, even the chosen ones. (EVEN the CHOSEN ONES !)

my translation: even the most spiritualy sincere ones, even the most spiritually knowledgeable ones will be fooled.

<<Why didn't God give me a good kick to wake me up?">>

He did...he showed you unbelievable stories of perverse sexual abuse, corruption and slimyness (lol)...and you were one of a handful of people who woke up after that huge swift kick in the rear.

Terrie 1373

09-30-2001 10:41 PM ET (US)

With the many WTC lucky survivors, there were no doubt many other escapes that seemed like favors from God or miracles of a type. Many people have a strong faith in God and believe they were protected. ssb devotees are just another group of people with faith in God who believe they were saved by God's grace. Nothing special in their stories, unless you see ALL the stories of lucky escapes as special.

Terrie 1372

09-30-2001 10:36 PM ET (US) 10:37 PM

Yes, I remember feeling to wonderfully honored and fortunate to be one of the lucky ones who KNEW God was on the earth. I am still asking the question, "Why...Why for so long was I allowed to live in delusion? Why didn't God give me a good kick to wake me up?"

I still don't know the answer unlesss, as some one said on the boards once, it's like a giant wave flowing over the earth and it caught many of us by its force. Maybe the wave of false devotion is breaking on the shore now, so here is the expose of the false god.

Terrie 1371

09-30-2001 10:25 PM ET (US)

Why did divine incarnations come so long ago? You are right, Sanjay, the main reason so many of us jumped on joe's bandwagan was the great desire to be close to God, to see God and touch God, to know that he/she was really there.

This doesn't seem fair. Wouldn't you think that God him/herself would not let us be so deceived? I think I read in one of Yogananda's books that the said the greatest sin of all is betrayal. I was surprised that betrayal might be considered worse even than murder perhaps. So this false god has the burden of the ages on his shoulders.

But when the great ones were on the earth, most people didn't recognize them. Maybe we were alive then. I'm sure many of us were. Somehow this time around it might be time to grow up and realize that God is within.

But, Sanjay, this is a problem for you because you believe that God has a physical form. And with that conviction, not having God here on the earth now is more painful.

Isn't there a story of Ramakrishna Paramahansa who kept seeing Mother Kali in vision, and he had to forcefully destroy that vision in order to know God completely? But Yogananda often saw and talked with the Divine Mother. So it would seem that we'd have to be awfully advanced before we can do without some kind of personal manifestation of the Divine.

Sanjay Dadlani 1370

09-30-2001 09:49 PM ET (US)

I can clearly remember an incident in my life that took place when I was around 3 years of age. I have been very religious practically since I was born so it was quite natural for me to talk of God and spiritual subjects even as a babe.

I remember standing in my mother's bedroom, looking up at her and asking, "Why did Rama and Krishna come so long ago? Even a Christian god like Jesus came so long ago. Why don't they come now when I am here?"

The psychology of a typical devotee usually harbours a need to believe that an incarnation of God is actually present on the earth right now. They need that flattery. They need to be told that they have been picked as the "lucky ones" who are privileged enough to know of his advent. Look at how they giggle. Just like small children. Many people find a certain sense of fulfillment in it. More also get the chance to go the "secret place" (which is right near one of India's big cities by the way) where God lives and get his darshan. More also get the lucky chance to be spoken to by him, and POSSIBLY even selected for a private interview.

How betraying is it, then, when after a significant amount of time has been spent on worshipping such a person do you realise that it all amounts to nothing?

How betraying is it, then, to realise that God is NOT on the earth?

How betraying is it, then, to realise that all the prophecies he made about your life do not come true?

What is the use of thousands of trays of blessed sweets, many signed photos, and a picture album stuffed with photos of you and him?

What's the use of all the many books you bought, only to realise what an incredible amount of money you have wasted? And then you forgot that "Money is God!"

So once again, I ask the same question: "Why did Rama and Krishna come so long ago? Even a Christian god like Jesus came so long ago. Why don't they come now when I am here?"

Sanjay

Sanjay Dadlani 1369

09-30-2001 09:38 PM ET (US)

Also: A report on the WTC.

I've finished compiling a series of "incidents" connected with the WTC disaster. Many people have been expecting some "miracle" stories to come out of this disaster which may be suspected to be one of the Org's ploys.

I can reveal that there HAVE in fact been quite a few storied of lucky escapes and rescues by and of Sai devotees, and naturally they are all full of gleeful praise and thanks to the "Lord Sai."

Unfortunately, although their rescue incidents are truly humbling and indeed very lucky, they do not fit into the category of a Sai miracle. By that, I mean that there have been no reported incidences of Sai Baba making an appearance in his "subtle" body and "miraculously" pulling some lucky bhakta out of danger.

Pat to that, then. Hairy missed his chance. He probably didn't expect it, let alone predict it.

Sanjay

Andries 1366

09-30-2001 04:41 PM ET (US)

Thanks 'A Sparrow' you for your answer. I really appreciate it. I will reply later on http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabadiscussionclub

A Sparrow 1365

09-30-2001 03:49 PM ET (US)

Learning is a matter of trial and error. If sometimes we go overboard being too trusting and it turns out that we put our faith in someone not worthy of it, we'll be more cautious after that experience. Hopefully we don't go too far in the other direction and become cynical, but rather use some rational judgment next time.

The first few years of being under raju's spell, during which time I had no doubts, were the happiest ones of my life. It was a high that I thought was going to last forever, but nothing does. The pendulum swings.

The hardest thing, the biggest step, is gaining faith in ourselves. That doesn't mean that we'll always be right or that we're perfect, but just that there isn't going to be this huge mommy or daddy figure to spoon feed us everything while our brains take a siesta for the rest of our lives. I once knew a devotee who refused to apply ice to a bump on her head she had acquired in a fall because to do so would indicate that she didn't have faith in raju to heal it for her.

I like to look at it this way: loving and believing in raju was practice for loving and believing in God. But even God probably wants us to use our reasoning abilities. That's why we have them.

Andries 1364

09-30-2001 03:39 PM ET (US)

Andries wrote

<<Frankly sometimes I think that's it is better to believe in something even if it's an attractive illusion than in nothing. >>

Beth wrote

< I think the person of "faith" and belief is always more fortunate than those who are hardened by too much scepticism. There is such a thing as healthy scepticism, but beyond that, scepticism leads nowhere with regards to spiritual understanding and growth...it becomes cynical to all.>

I agree that an overdosis of scepticism may lead to cynicism. Cynicism may be a form of protecting yourself from getting hurt again. If you don't believe in God, goodness, love or even friendship anymore then you can't get hurt anymore by others. Instead you hurt yourself.

Anyway it is not very wise to put all your eggs in one basket as I had done. I mean if you put all your faith and love in one person whoever that may be either husband, wife or SSB then naturally your whole world collapses if you're betrayed and deceived.

Beth wrote

<... Ye must be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven (said by mr. Jesus...don't know exact phrase...close enough)...i.e.,must be naive and pure minded, and open to believe.>

This emphasis on faith and naivite in bible frustrates me now because this was one of the main reasons why I swallowed SSB's bait. This is one of the reasons I don't consider myself a christian anymore.

I agree that some healthy skepticism is necessary. You sometimes have to look at your belief system with the view of an outsider imo even if this is painful and difficult.

Can other people comment on this topic? Thanks in advance.

Beth 1356

09-30-2001 10:39 AM ET (US)

<<Frankly sometimes I think that's it is better to believe in something even if it's an attractive illusion than in nothing. >>

I think the person of "faith" and belief is always more fortunate than those who are hardened by too much scepticism. There is such a thing as healthy scepticism, but beyond that, scepticism leads nowhere with regards to spiritual understanding and growth...it becomes cynical to all. ... Ye must be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven (said by mr. Jesus...don't know exact phrase...close enough)...i.e.,must be naive and pure minded, and open to believe.

Andries 1355

09-30-2001 05:32 AM ET (US)

'Faith is blind. There is no rational proof for it. It is based on a psychological need.... You want to believe because you feel empty without it.... so empty that you even don't dare to live. Look inside; this void looks like death. It's a psychological need that someone gives you hope, a belief, a kind of opium so you can fall asleep. At least you can put aside your fear for the time being. The Messiah is with you, the Son of God - why fear?

He gives you meaning. He gives you hope and he gives you authority. This is all projected by you and ... exploited by him. It is a mutual phenomenon.

....Can you see the vicious circle? He will become more authoritarian, more determined, more zealous. The more authoritarian, determined and zealous he becomes the more people will fall in his trap because they need authority. They need a father figure. Somebody that leads them. They don't know themselves where to go to, what to do and who they are.'

[Retranslated from Dutch into English by me]

by Osho (aka Rajneesh) 1931-1990 'From Misery to Enlightment' ,1984

I found this quote in the book 'Messiahs: The Visions and Prophecies for the Second Coming' by John Hogue 1999. Many messiahs, maitreyas, prophets and avatars are treated in this book but SSB is not one of them. This shows clearly how far beyond reality SSB claims are that he will be recognized as the poorna avatar by the whole world. It is a skeptical book. It looks as if the author has never been a 'true believer' himself otherwise he would have written with some more sympathy for people who live in the mental fish bowl of a cult.

Frankly sometimes I think that's it is better to believe in something even if it's an attractive illusion than in nothing. What do other people think about this statement? Thanks in advance for your answer.

Andries 1354

09-30-2001 03:05 AM ET (US)

Just one more story about SSB that I consider funny in hindsight.

About half a year a devotee told me that a good friend of hers had seen SSB very clearly cheating when 'materializing' vibuthi. She pondered about the question what spritual lesson SSB could have with his act for her and her friend. May be trust Me even when I cheat. Or the world is just an illusion.

It did not cross her and my mind once that the only spiritual lesson that once could derive from SSB's act was to lose all trust in this charlatan and severe all ties with SSB.

Why not? In hindsight it looks like a psychological miracle to me. Explanations for this miracle are welcome.

Kind Regards, Andries K.D.

Sanjay Dadlani 1347

09-29-2001 11:50 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 09-29-2001 11:53 PM

HI Terrie!

Yes I agree. I am sure glad to meet Andries, Beth and Suresh, such nice people. They welcomed me very nicely. I enjoyed Andrie's story of how the HK devotees were looking at her in her army uniform, hehe.

I agree with your idea to start up a Yahoo board in Anthony's absence and then maybe he can take over when he gets back. Let me outline the advantages and disadvantages for you between Yahoo and Yahoogroups.

YAHOO:- Can ONLY log in with your Yahoo ID. No one can log in under your Yahoo ID unless you give it to them along with your password. - Spam posts, when they happen, can be deleted.

- Spammer's Yahoo IDs can also be deleted and they will never show up again unless under a different ID.

YAHOOGROUPS (http://groups.yahoo.com/start):- This is Email-centric. - Subscribers will receive posts by email.

- Subscribers can choose whether to receive individual mails or a daily digest. - The moderator can choose which people can join. If the 'Open' option is chosen, this means that members can join freely without your permission. If 'Restricted' is chosen, you approve all memberships. - The moderator can also choose whether to let members post freely, or to allow moderated posts only. The latter option means that all posts will come to you first and will be displayed to the rest of the group on your approval.

Well, Ball's in your court now Terrie! LOL! You choose what to do.

Much love, Sanjay