THE SUNRISE CHAT PAGE
Page 2: beginning November 1, 2001 (Message #56)
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100: 5-30-02 ROBERT PRIDDY
THE IGNORANCE OF A SELF-CLAIMED OMNISCIENT GOD - SAI BABA
Anyone who believes that Sai Baba is omniscient ought to examine the evidence proving that he certainly is not. Thanks to the extremely accurate and painstaking work of yet another of SB's previous admiring writers, Brian Steel (see http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/Omnitruth.htm), we are given the best overview so far of the huge discrepancies between SB's omniscient claim and his actual (lack of) knowledge.
This insightful analysis also sums up the current situation of research into what it is increasingly correct to call the 'myth' of Sai Baba's youth and mission. The evidence is startling and so succinctly presented that it will be most interesting to see if any remaining defenders of the birthday and school myths of Sai Baba - or his fanciful jumble of pseudo-revelations about Jesus and other historical facts and figure - dare even to enter the discussion!
Brian Steel sums up the situation concisely as follows:
"Some unconditionally faithful, totally committed, devotees will no doubt continue to accept this view in the face of any new evidence that is presented. Many others may no longer be able to justify such blind trust in the face of the accumulating evidence - in this book and in many other documents. But the key question remains: with such evidence of doubtful and incorrect information being disseminated by SB in his Discourses, what is one to make of other 'omniscient' pronouncements and claims made by the same guru?"
99: 5-30-02 ROBERT PRIDDY
The organisers of the International Petition received some spam mail from a self-declared 'Sai devotee' hiding behind the rather pretentious alias 'Projection analyst'. He deactivated his e-mail account immediately, so he must be back in the self-contained "monad without windows" to the outside world.
What he expressed gives only reason to pity him. He wrote: "Albert Einstein and quantum physics illustrate the principle that we can only see what we are. Petition signers are indicting themselves... Baba is the cosmic mirror who reveals to each his or her own face. Poster knows many gay devotees whose polarities were gradually changed by Baba....most married. I began a lifetime of celibacy"
Here is a reply for him and those who people the 'external world' to read:
Dear 'projection analyst,'
You wrote about SB as a 'cosmic mirror,' the cosmic mirror who reveals to each his or her own face." Albert Einstein and quantum physics illustrate the principle that we can only see what we are."
However, you proceed to draw a conclusion from this about others. That is untenable, however you look at it. You are, by your own major premise, excluding that you can know anything about anyone else! I would have thought you could also have analysed your own views as projections, then?
Are you not, by your hypothesis, equally projecting all your ideas and imagined qualities onto Sai Baba? In your declared and lonely solipsism you must be aware that it means you cannot communicate anything to anyone else, for they are all figments. In fact, Einstein's relativity is in basic conflict with quantum physics, and neither of these lend themselves to the assumption you have falsely drawn from them.
Robert Priddy (not a figment of your projection, but a former lecturer in philosophy of science, University of Oslo).
98: 4-10-02 BOB SHARMA
Many thanks for providing info which is very sickening to read. Please keep me posted. I sent an article in Sai Forum on the internet. Some are shocked whereas others are BABA PROTECTIVE.
Kind Regards, Bob Sharma
97: 3-30-02 MARSWALKER
From the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic Board (Please see our Links page for the link to this board.)
I have just completed a trip through 4 states here in the USA. Mystic Sadona, Arizona has been considered sacred by the American Indians for thousands of years. During my one-day visit to this beautiful tourist town, I visited 4 crystal/metaphysical bookstores which sell SSB publications and one that does not. I relayed my story of becoming an ex-devotee to the managers or clerks in these stores.
All these individuals were very courteous and interested in my story. Of about 20 spoken to, 15 had heard of the rumors concerning the sexual crimes of SB. Some thought it was timely that I speak of this because of the sexual abuses of Catholic priests now coming to light in the US and the cover-up of the Catholic Church concerning this.
Some of you know that I have posted previously on various boards concerning the cover-up of SB sexual abuses by leaders of the organization here in the USA. One leader even tried to justify the molestations to me during a phone conversation with her.
After leaving Sadona, I attended a symposium near Farmington, New Mexico. I talked to 2 people who had a very favorable impression of SB. They both listened to my viewpoint and admitted to hearing sexual rumors about SB. I was able to change the thinking of these seekers of truth. I felt encouraged that the word is getting out and people are becoming more cautious. Let's keep up the good work!
Best wishes, Dennis
96: 3-18-02 DRAGONSLAYER
I've been pretty quiet as webmaster. Sunrise has been winding down. We're tired! We filled in last year when other exposé sites closed down. Now there are two additional very active and up-to-date sites: saiguru and exbaba. Both sites can be reached from our Links Page. Another active site (not kept as current as the other two) is sathyasaivictims. The link to that site is on the Sunrise International Pipeline page.
Sunrise will continue on the web, and this Chat Page will remain open. New news, articles and stories will appear on the Links Page now and then, but please check exbaba (the Dutch site) and saiguru for all the most recent up-to-date news. These two sites also provide links to additional exposé sites.
95: 3-14-02 TERRIE
The new format of the Yahoo Discussion boards makes them impossible to use. The bright flashing ads pop up at every provocation. I am no longer going to those boards. We still have the Anthony Thomas board (below, message #94) and Suresh Balaraman's Quick Topic board for posting, as well as the Sunrise Chat page. Please see the Discussion Board page for a link to Suresh's board.
94: 3-07-02 TERRIE
Anthony Thomas is re-opening his QuickTopic Board. The Link is also on the Sunrise links page--bottom right. http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6
93: 3-3-02 BRIAN STEEL
I have just read Prime Minister Vajpayee's plea for everyone to be nicer to SSB.
I note (with great interest) that there is NO mention of SSB's claimed Divinity. He is referred to only as "a great spiritual master and teacher," ecumenical in outlook and with masses of social works to his credit.
Neither is there any recognition in this open letter of Mr. Vajpayee's (or anyone else's) recognition of those frequent claims to be an Avatar. So, perhaps Mr Vajpayee and his co-signatories have read my little book: SSB: God or Guru? Now that would be very encouraging!
Below is the sort of letter that the Indian Prime Minister MIGHT send me IF he had the time and the inclination. (I wish him and his nation a speedy and peaceful solution to the present religious conflicts.)
You don't mind if I call you Brian, do you? Good. The SB Divinity question isn't exactly as you and others over there see it; it is much LESS complex. You do not understand Sai Baba's South Indian language, Telugu, do you? Neither do I, but I am told that in Telugu, if one says "Hello. I am God. I am omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent," one does NOT mean it in the simplistic sense that you "Westerners" understand it.
What one means is, apparently, "I am a qualified guru, and I would like you to benefit from being my devotee. What I just said was just my little game (leela)." That's all. Nothing sinister in that, is there! The rest is up to you and the guru. Well, nice to have had the opportunity to clear up that little misunderstanding. Please tell your friends over there.
92: TERRIE 2-18-02 Re: Robert Priddy
The following conversation is from http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabadiscussionclub
Message 4497 of 4499 Reply Re: R. Priddy- to Cosmic Piper beth_inca (F/LosAngeles) 2/18/02 1:39 am
Hi Cosmic, I'm posting this for Starlight who is travelling and finding it hard to get on-line for any length of time. Here's her note to you.
Dear Cosmic Piper,
The problem lays in not having been there to see for yourself. It is always great to read the stories etc. but another to actually see things for yourself. Robert has been many times to see him and has much information on the entire subject matter. He is a kind good man who would not say anything that is untrue. I would imagine he thought deep and hard before committing himself to such a detailed report.
He was a very committed person and a stickler for the truth when a devotee, and I have no reason to think his morals or ethics have changed. He is the one person I would listen to carefully.
Another thought, we watched the religious channel last night and saw several gurus singing bhajans and giving discourse- they were all similar to Sai - the same large crowds, the same sort of devotion, the same sort of discourses. However, I did notice that several of the gurus looked well - - they had an ambiance of goodness about them. I think these gurus are much the same but when money, power and wealth are obtained then trouble begins.
Message 4498 of 4499 Reply Re: Robert Priddy Replies manyhues 2/18/02 3:01 am
The truth is usually different from accusations. Robert Priddy mentions "blatant liars who say I have never spoken to Sai Baba." I apparently was one of them, because I did say that in this Club. The reason I said it is now clear to me. It was a genuine misunderstanding, and Robert Priddy is responsible for it at least in part. Here is what I read on Robert Priddy's website:
"Disclaimer: The above work is done as service to truth and the good (improvement of understanding of others) and is in no way done for money (on the contrary) or any vested interest, nor on behalf of any conspiracy, as the International (or Overseas) Chairman has claimed a priori of those who have been critical of certain of SBs activities, but without any evidence. Nothing imputed to him here is personally meant, for it is his public role-behaviour that is here brought under scrutiny (I have never even met, spoken with or corresponded with him)."
Now it's pretty clear that this statement is very unclear. The two "hims" in the last sentence would ordinarily be taken to refer to Sai Baba because he is the last proper name ("SB") mentioned before these personal pronouns "him." That was my logical reading. Now it seems that it was really the International Chairman who was the antecedent of the two pronouns "him" in that last confusing sentence.
I would suggest that Robert Priddy rewrite this sentence. So if other "blatant liars" like me said that Priddy never met or talked to Sai Baba, it's probably because they read the same confusing sentence that I did.
One mystery solved. Agreement on one fact. On to the next!
This Is a Reply to: Msg 4493 by terrie109
Thanks manyhues/Cosmic Piper. We will copy your post here to the Sunrise Chat Page. Prepositions matter!! Former university professor, Robert Priddy, please re-write that last sentence and give a proper name for "him."
91: ROBERT PRIDDY 2-16-02
Blatant liars who say I have said I have not spoken to Sai Baba can buy my book from 1994 where I detail the first four interviews I had (ca. 8 hours) and report from the several hundreds of darshans I had attended where Baba sometimes spoke to me. There are photos of a green stone ring he gave me and him speaking to me etc.
The book SOURCE OF THE DREAM is also published in the USA by Samuel Weiser, York Beach and in India since then.
90: HARIOMDAS (from http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabaexposeforum )
Message 506 of 508 "Robert Priddy's major Expose Article" hariomdas 2/12/02 6:26 pm
There is an important long, researched article just posted at: http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/ It is by Robert Priddy.
For many years, a noted figure in the intellectual and devotional life of the sai baba movement, Robert Priddy is an academic, a sociologist, from Norway. He is a founder and leader of the sai movement in that country. After many months of processing his increasingly deep dissent from both sai baba and his, in some cases, questionable organization (particularly in the highest echelons), Robert Priddy has now gone public. This article marks this fact.
Robert Priddy had first hand contact with many key international figures in sai baba's organization. He also had an exceptionally close, warm friendship with the great Indian journalist, and Editor of "Sanathana Sarathi" (following upon Professor N. Kasturi), Sri V.K. Narasimhan. Hariomdas
89: ANTHONY THOMAS 2-16-02
'Angelfire,' having surrendered his or her mind and soul over to 'fuzzy wuzzy,' then simply becomes a tool for him. Probably reflecting the anger 'sb' must be feeling at getting exposed! Take no notice, Glen. None of us do. I get regularly slandered as well. We all know you have done the most wonderful job at gettting this creature exposed to the world. The truth will out. The devil is heading for his own pit of fire.
88: BETH 2-14-02
Tell Glen that "Angelfire" is the spammer lady of many aliases, and not to be too offended. She has slandered all of us at one time or another...LOL. ..and is still out there doing it. I do remember that post of hers, but I can't remember which board it was from....and I think it was in response to one of my posts also.
But it's good that Glen defended himself anyway.
87: TERRIE 2-13-02
Glen, I wouldn't bother to get upset over these slander tactics. The sai org and devotees who are starting to wake up are running scared and resorting to all kinds of craziness to combat what they know or sense is the truth. One of their favorite tactics is to attack and slander ex-devotees. They're not worth responding to!!
I don't know which discussion board had Angelfire's post.
86: GLEN MELOY
Who is this slanderous creep called Angelfire? I was NEVER asked to leave the Sai Organization as stated in the trash below.
Angelfire 63 11-22-2001 08:16 AM ET (US) (From an Unknown Discussion Board)
(Deleted sentences....) Glen Meloy is NOT snow white either, ask him why he was asked to leave the sai organisation. Then ask that crass Tony OCleary why he does not attend to facts and throw mud either way. Selective blindness, I'd say.
85: A SPARROW 2-13-02
This Robert Priddy thing is very, very exciting. His was a big name in SB circles. I remember always seeing and hearing his name. This is going to make it very uncomfortable for the hangers on. It's like having Goldstein or Krystal or someone like that come out against SB. And the next article should be great (sb reexamined). I printed out the one about the org and am about half way through with it. It's quite long. Things are really moving, friends.
84: BARRY PITTARD (via loveandjyothi) from http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabadiscussionclub
Message 4479 of 4479 Re: Danish Documentary
Posted by: loveandjyothi 2/12/02 9:46 pm
An additional message regarding Robert Priddy from Barry Pittard: http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/
As of the last few hours, a major new Expose article is now available at this URL. It is entitled: "The Sathya Sai Organisation Examined." Its amplified title is: 'On the International Sathya Sai Organisation. A participant observational analysis of its structures, management and functions.' (You may guess that we have a sociologist here).
The article is by Robert Priddy. Some of you will know of him. He wrote one of the, in my opinion, few decently readable books on his ssb experiences: "Source of the Dream - My Way to Sathya Sai Baba." Robert's publishing of his article on the Net represents his public Expose entrance.
For a great many months, he has been busy doing the research which will clearly now represent a 'bombshell' that is bound to further demolish the evil ediface that ssb has created, while outwardly appearing to do only good. Robert has kindly supplied his details to our researchers.
He was an active founding member of the ss org in Norway in 1983, functioning formerly as leader/coordinator of the Oslo group (and later centre) from 1986 to 1996, and as the acting overall leader/contact person of the ss org in Norway in Norway from 1983 to 2000.
He formerly researched at The Institute of Social Studies, Oslo, lectured in philosophy 1969-85 and sociology 1979-76, University of Oslo, Norway. I would not wish to be in the shoes of those such as Thorbjorn Meyer, Zonal Chairman for zone 4 (Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, and Russia). It would be to tremble at the thought of such well-informed former leaders of the ss org speaking out the awful facts with strong, articulate voices. It will be interesting to hear your responses to Robert Priddy's article.
83: HARIOMDAS (from http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabaexposeforum)
The Danish Documentary
hariomdas 2/1/02 12:38 a.m.
In the midst of the excitement about the Danish documentary exposing various facets of sai baba's duplicity, let us remember that there was a highly well-researched documentary (shown in two parts) made in Argentina. Media around the world will soon be buying or exchanging each other's sai baba expose footage.
This is the way it happens. It is now inevitable. So clearly active was the research team that Dr Michael Goldberg, from the very pinnacle of the sai organization, went to Argentinia and got thoroughly worsted by his, along with Leonardo Gutter's, poor performance. It did not go well for Gutter that he slandered Conny Larsson in all but naming him. It did not go well for Goldberg that, before sizable audiences, AND on a video, he noted how ssb had saved devotees from the September 11 catastrophe. (Too bad for all the rest!).
Nor did it serve his cause to mention a letter which we find the Indian Prime Minister signing, deploring the so-called vilifications and voices who dissent from ssb. Vajpayee, no apostle of ahimsa (non-violence), is yet another in a long line of Indian Prime Ministers flattered in public by ssb, a recent example being Narasimha Rao, now languishing in jail on corruption and embezzlement charges.
The sai organization must be running scared by now. Let us keep an especial watch - particularly on evil actions of men (and a sprinkling of token women) calling themselves spiritual. Watch Thorbjorn Meyer, the sai organization Co-ordinator of Europe. Very nasty man - full of cowardly inuendos, which he cannot sustain without his case being thrown out of a Danish court. Watch the cent per cent male-dominated top leadership resort to tactics that are anything but spiritual. They will Expose themselves. And fall mightily!
82: 2-02-02 ANON
I just invented a phrase: the Sai Bin Laden gang.
81: 1-16-01 TERRIE
Anthony, maybe you'd like to give us some details of what is going on at present from your perspective?
80: 1-16-02 ANTHONY THOMAS
Hello Everyone from Anthony It is all still happening. Truth will out.
79: 12-10-01 MAVERICK DREAMER
(Yahoo Discussion Board Message 240, 11/19/01 2:09 pm)
Re: new book by Brian Steel on internet: http://bdsteel.tripod.com
Have just read the above book. Really worth reading because it doesn't focus on the recent allegations, but instead on the inconsistencies, contradictions and plain wacky statements! A really good chapter is when he writes how well meaning devotees inadvertently spread rumours about miracles, which when repeated often enough, become fact.
A really good read and nice reminder that sb is crooked and flawed the whole way through. I still suspect he has some siddhis which allowed him to attract many well meaning seekers, many of whom are still caught in the myth. I really feel for some of these seekers, especially the ones who have built their lives around sb.
It took me a good year or two to overcome the feelings of anger, betrayal and loss. I know of people to whom sb is their life in totality, and if sb is proven ( to their satisfaction) to be a fraud, I fear it would almost literally destroy them. I am still trying to re-establish a relationship with God, but now find myself questioning everything and everyone. If there is a God, I hope that cosmic justice prevails upon sb.
78: 12-10-01 ANTHONY THOMAS
Hi to all from Anthony Thomas,
I have decided at this time, not to resurrect my message board. I can't do it justice at the moment. However, I continue to remain very active on other fronts of the sb expose. I managed to get a hooked devotee free of him this week. She had just returned from her third visit to him. So, it is possible to get even the most ardent followers to see the light.
As we approach the new year, similar to most of us, I desire a world of peace. However, my wish for peace is centered on the hearts and souls of the millions hooked into fuzzy wuzzy. May they and all others of all races and creeds, find peace and light in this coming year of 2002.
77: 11-17-01 BARRY PITTARD
Important news has broken while I have been away for a couple of days. Brian Steel has e-published his book, in which he traces his attraction to, and ultimate disaffection with, ssb. Someone has already emailed suggesting that Steel may be a pseudonym. Steel is real. There are his two books "The Sathya Sai Baba Compendium. The First 70 years" and "Sai Powers" to attest to his activity.
This is an important breakthrough. Brian has long been processing. The first surfacing of his name into the Exposé domain so far as I am aware is in a note of achnowledgement at the end of Alex's last major article. While Brian (a retired academic from Adelaide, Australia), was going through his painful processing, he wished to keep his name out of things. Others are doing the same thing. It is easy to think of it as fence-sitting. In the cases of which I am aware, I view it as a time of painful processing.
There is, as is proper in the academic domain, an especially keen demand for extensive evidence, and the absolutely painstaking recording and presentation of it. Some take time out of their academic, family and social life to compile, using disciplined academic skills of research, analysis. synthesis and reporting to produce writing which will surely be an outstanding contribution, in time, to the Exposé. They also have excellent networks, which will be an invaluable means by which to "spread the word."
I notice that Alex Nagel has done a good job notifying people and sending the detail of Brian's book. In case you have not received the information, here is the URL: http://bdsteel.tripod.com
76: 11-17-01 ANTHONY THOMAS
Just a hello to everyone from Anthony Thomas. I have now returned home from being abroad for a while. I have been reading through the emails to Sunrise. Great that the spammer hasn't put everything out of action. I am considering what to do re my own message board which needed to be suspended in my absence owing to the efforts of the spammer.
Barry, I really understand your stuff and where you are coming from. Yes, it is great that Glen Meloy has been able to stand back and rest. He deserves to. The dedication you have all shown is so admirable. I agree that every bit we put out there about him slowly chips away and one day the cloud descends and all will be revealed and all those people will go free of his influence.
I can truly understand why some people feel they want to know of his victims personally. That makes sense if you don't have that gut feeling about the guy. Personally,I feel very lucky. Because I have such a deep and true knowing of what this guy is on about, whether I know any victims of his sexual abuse or not is irrelevant to me.
I feel each of us on Earth are connected in some way to everyone else, so from that stance everyone becomes a brother or sister and so are our own family. When he attacks someone who is a stranger to me, he attacks me. I also will continue for ever as long as I exist, in my own small way, to get the truth out about fuzzy wuzzy.
75: 11-17-01 BARRY PITTARD
Tal Brooke has just written to say that his mother has died. She has had a long battle with cancer. May our prayers unite to send love and strength to Tal and his family at this time. Our brother Glen Meloy has called Tal "the first whistle-blower," and, in some searching contacts with him, both Glen and I have experienced in Tal a sincerity, intelligence and willingness to assist the Exposé.
74: 11-17-01 ALEXANDRA NAGEL
There is a new book, titled Sathya Sai Baba: God or guru? available on Sai Baba, compiled from data that clearly undermines Sai Baba's own claims of divinity, omniscience, etcetera. It is written by Brian Steel, whom you might know from his two previous Baba books "The SSB Compendium. The First 70 years" and "Sai Powers." The book in its current version is available on the web on: http://bdsteel.tripod.com/SSB/ Really worth reading!
73: 11-08-01 SUNRISE
We continue to feel that the victims should be out there fighting for themselves and any future victims there might be. The current situation reminds us of the prince (victims) who sends his servant (non-victims working for the exposé) to fetch the bride (the truth about sb). The bride never makes it back to the prince, but runs off with the servant. (Without the victims, the truth will be known only to a few "believers," and the exposé will fail.)
The exposé cannot succeed without the victims having the courage to present themselves before the world and tell their story. But perhaps a global catrastrophe will make it all unecessary. SB will go down in the general chaos.
72: 11-08-01 BARRY PITTARD
Terrie, Beth and Urawareness, have thought that I may have some thoughts to contribute. Here are some fleeting ones. Please excuse my haste.
Lionel Fernandez of Mexico and I do the best we can to pick up some of the threads left to us by the magnificently dedicated Glen Meloy (now, thank goodness! resting from Expose labours), and to develop a few of our own.
At present, we are researching and planning some projects which we will be glad to share when we are able to see wood from trees. Preliminary work on one of these has already got off to an auspicious start - quite leela-like (but without, you may not be totally surprised to hear, any vibhuthi breaking out on photos. Gosh, now where are all those photos?!).
I think the Expose may be likened to cloud formations over parched land. They take a long time gathering but when they finally burst, the thunderbolts come out from every whichway ...
Glen and I continue to write each other but NEVER on Expose matters. He is feeling FAR better in his health.
I shall briefly mention an issue which, I suppose, will have to keep coming up until it is resolved. Quite a few pro ssb apologists AND former devotees have asked: Where are the victims?
One of the difficulties encountered again and again is this: some victims say they will testify, then back off. Some would like to but are afraid re e.g., parents, friends, work situations, handling the emotional stuff that comes up ... etc.
Not everyone agrees with all the secrecy. I see a real point in it. When I get time, I shall perhaps make out the case. I used to think it was obvious; however, I find that not all former devotee activists agree. I'd be happy for them to make out a sustained, well-argued case for openness.
Personally, I have found that - at least for the time being - the fewer persons who have access to victims' information the more secure they feel, and the better becomes the rapport. As I view it, if we could all be sure that there is not, sometimes, mischief abroad, and, at other times, even simple human inadvertences, then the case for secrecy may be quite dismal.
71: 11-07-01 DRAGONSLAYER
We do not store e-mail addresses. After we learn to recognize an e-mail address (there are not that many), and the post is put on sunrise, the e-mail is deleted from the sunrise mailbox. For example, we know the name (first and last names) that you, urawreness, send your posts under. But we do not know (did not save) the entire e-mail address. If a post came from "urawareness" under another name than the one we recognize, we would suspect it was a spam post and ask for confirmation of your identity via return e-mail. (Many an e-mail name is only an alias anyway.)
70: 11-07-01 URAWARENESS
Just wondering what you do with our e-mail addresses, are you storing them or deleting them from the computer? I ask this question because I am using a company e-mail address which is not my own, and now wonder if that has been wise? Please do tell us your websites procedure regarding people's identities. Thank u,
69: 11-07-01 DRAGONSLAYER
How easy it was when we were followers of the false god to chalk up serious problems and events in our lives to a "test." I can't say I was ever desperately sick at the ashram. But during the 25 or so years I was a devotee, a number of strange events happened. I won't go into any detail, but at one time in my life I was falsely accused of a very serious offense. I spent perhaps six months going back and forth to court.
During the horrible time I wondered why the 'Lord of the Universe' I worshipped would allow such a terrible thing to happen. Of course, the answer was clear, 'It was a test." What rubblish! "Sai Baba saved all his faithful in the New York and Wahington disasters!" Would finding one he didn't save disprove this fraud? No. Of course, that one person who died was blessed to merge with the 'Lord.' This was the party story when the PN dome collapsed on devotees. BULL***
68: 11-06-01 TERRIE
I know so many of us got sick every time we visited the ashram. It's easy to say it might because of India's climate and lack of western sanitary conditions. I remember my daughter joking once about prasad given after darshan on a special festival day. She said, "If you eat any of that, you'll get sick. Everyone always gets sick after eating that prasad. The whole ashram gets sick!" (Including Indians, no doubt.)
Did a special, "anti-blessing" come with the prasad sweets? Maybe. If these illnesses happened only at the ashram, we might suppose that the climate and impure food didn't agree with westerners. But I know too many devotees at home here in America who have come down with serious illnesses, sometimes leading to death. I know two cases of a burst appendix where the people ended up very ill in the hospital. I know cases of progressive serious illness such as lupus. I know a devotee who died some years after having a stroke, all the while believing that sb would make her "better." I have seen too many devotees become rather nasty, judgemental and extreme in their behavior, while trying to be kind and thoughtful. Sort of like trying to stay clean while living in a psychic mud puddle.
I've also had the experience of heat and burning in the top of my head while a devotee. Often!
I believe this is all due to psychic contamination by forces that are not good. SB has said, "I like to see my devotees suffer." Maybe devotees need ot start taking that statement at face value.
67: 11-06-01 SANJAY
I'd like to give my response to Barry Pittard's post earlier on, in which he forwarded a mail from his correspondant about how people get "ill" around Sai Baba. I'd like to post my experience of this, and as such I am forwarding an extract from a mail to Barry in which I told him the whole story:
"I must admit that I have experienced much the same. Of course, the shock of being in a different climate may be a factor and I have been known to fall ill from fever etc whenever I have gone to India or anywhere overseas, though not immediately. I spent my 21st birthday in bed with fever in Sri Lanka!
"So apart from the climate factor, I can report suspicious incidents that have happened to me while in Sai's immediate presence. I have ALWAYS come down with something or other while in the ashram(s) and right now I do not recall a trip in which I didn't have a medical complaint of some sort.
"I attended the first WYC in 1997, and while the Youth Meetings were actually taking place I had to physically exert myself to attend these meetings as I was ill from fever. I missed the Gurupoornima event of that year due to fever. Even on my last trip (1999-2000 Millenium) I came down with a fever that led to chicken pox! I have never had it in my life and we all know that it is a disease that usually hits infants, along with others like measles, mumps, rubella, etc. To come down with chicken pox in an overseas country, in a poor village like Puttaparthi, was indeed a tremendously daunting experience.
"After speaking with some people who had experienced it themselves, I now see that I had it pretty "easy" in which my suffering of chicken pox was not that bad compared to other people's, and my suffering/itching was minimal and not entirely all over my body. At the time I attributed it to SERIOUS Divine Purification, as deluded devotees are to think of course, and I didn't think much of it except to thank Sai for making it pretty easy.
"The accompanying fever was the highest I have ever experienced in my life and I did turn delirious for a while. I also missed the "Sports Day" events of 2000 due to this, as well as 2 weeks of darshans. The above two accounts may seem somewhat coincidental in the fact that these things happen in India due to climate shock, as well as coincidental that it happened in Sai's presence too, but this next one may interest you.
"I remember an incident in 1993 (I think it was the day of the Ganesh Chaturthi festival) and I was working heavily in the Indian Canteen at Whitefield. This is one memorable occasion, because even if I do say so myself, I worked very hard on that seva with no thought for myself or my own comfort. The sevaks who worked got certain priviliges including free food and such, and especially that festival day there was a special "milk pudding" that was offered to Ganesh, and a part of it was kept for the sevaks.
"Due to the fact that I was working continuously and not even caring about what time I will eat, I missed out on that too, and I also think that I went to afternoon darshan without taking a shower, as you know that Sai doesnt approve of that. Well anyway, so there I was exhausted after a full morning's work and I got on my knees to hand Sai a letter, and he blessed me by laying his palm on my head and smiling at me, for about 3 seconds. Everyone I knew noticed this and was congratulating me. I felt elated coz for me that was proof that Sai knew about the work I had done and was encouraging me.
"Now here's the clever bit. Almost immediately after that "blessing", I felt a funny sensation in my head. It felt like some sort of very very slight dizziness and lightheadedness, and I assumed it was a slight feeling of bliss that Sai had bestowed on me. Gradually throughtout the day, this funny feeling increased in intensity, and by evening my head was HOT! you can guess what happened next, I developed fever ...
"Now I do not wish to speculate about what was actually happening during these times. I refuse to speculate whether it was a genuine blessing for purification or a vampirelike scenario of life-force sucking. I went to visit Sai regularly and I contracted fevers, colds, coughs and chicken pox, that is the fact of the matter. Hope it was enlightening somehow.
66: 11-05-01 TERRIE
In #59, Barry Pittard wrote:
Terrie's and Urawareness's points about hearsay are tremendously important. I feel that there is such great honesty in Terrie's stance that, since she has not had direct contact with even one witness, she will greatly modify her association with (what gets called) "the Exposé." If all those, both pro-ssb and former devotees were to have directly contacted persons who say ssb molested them, no victim would have a minute of the day left for himself.
Barry, I am not the ex-devotee in the street. I've helped with Sunrise almost from its beginning and have monitored discussion boards. If you and everyone else who personally knows victims have not seen fit to put even one victim in touch with me (aside from the few well known victims who have posted their stories on the Internet), where does that put faith and trust? Do you think I am going to shout the names of sb's victims from the rooftops??? I am therefore put in my present position of not being a credible witness to anything. Time to leave the floudering exposé.
Of course, the world spins round on vicarious living: books, magazines - the lives of others. Hearsay. Dieting on someone else's digested food. Our own mass hypnosis. One of our loved former devotee sisters, a counselor, is now at the WTC site. Although she did not experience the event at first hand, she will still validate and credit the shattered persons who she assists. We can all do the same thing if any young man or woman comes to us saying they were sexually abused...
Barry, this is a really lousy analogy!!! You're saying there is value in hearsay for those of us who might speak against sb? You're comparing an event and its victims whose lives have been televised and in the international major news madia for many weeks with some private correspondence from sb victims that no one but you knows about??? Sorry, I don't buy the comparison. (My x-rated reaction translated into code: #!!&**#)
65: 11-05-01 BARRY PITTARD
59: 11-01-01 Terrie writes: Urawareness, you can write to Barry personally if you want to. His e-mail address is on the Sunrise Pipeline page... As far as I know, Barry does not visit the discussion boards. However, he sends his messages to sunrise to be posted.
Yes, that is close to the facts. Time is an enormous constraint. Stern duties call elsewhere. Sometimes, a kind person emails drawing attention to a post, as in the present case.
In 58: 11-01-01 Urawareness wrote: Dear Barry and All, Why not get your point across by writing a serious book? Your tale has the ring of truth - not easily found in several other reports. I mean if we have the truth why should we need hearsay?
A decade ago, I have spent three years writing a book on my experiences related to ssb, and a great deal of segmented time revising it. It seemed to be finished, until immensely sad revelations intervened and I began my investigations. The book was almost published by an Australian publisher who got cash-strapped (or so I hear! Yes, hearsay.) Recorded in it are wonderful first-hand experiences of leelas, miracles and so on - yet: in that other terrible September came the Nexus articles. Ring of truth there, too!
I shall never resile on what has been so wonderful. Yet it is confronted by the direct confrontation of what is so terrible. Close, relentless personal investigation, including witness contact with an array (from different parts of the world) of those who say they were molested has been at times truly gutwrenching. Even if it were proved that all the stories were misguided, there have been the immeasurable joys, too, that come from following one's heart. Joy in sorrow. Sorrow in joy.
Just as I accepted the beautiful revelations, I now accept the terrible ones. I have given up the attempt to create a covering theory, and resort to a fundamental: I am a citizen, and a human being, with a duty never to cover up what even SEEMS to me to be an honest account of sexual molestation. If I cover up alleged misdeeds of the one I thought to manifest Divinity, why should not my fellow citizens cover up serious allegations of misdemeanors by those they deem to be Divine?
I mean if we have the truth why should we need hearsay?
Terrie's and Urawareness's points about hearsay are tremendously important. I feel that there is such great honesty in Terrie's stance that, since she has not had direct contact with even one witness, she will greatly modify her association with (what gets called) "the Exposé." If all those, both pro-ssb and former devotees were to have directly contacted persons who say ssb molested them, no victim would have a minute of the day left for himself.
Of course, the world spins round on vicarious living: books, magazines - the lives of others. Hearsay. Dieting on someone else's digested food. Our own mass hypnosis. One of our loved former devotee sisters, a counselor, is now at the WTC site. Although she did not experience the event at first hand, she will still validate and credit the shattered persons who she assists. We can all do the same thing if any young man or woman comes to us saying they were sexually abused. Chances are that they were. At the very least, they are entitled to their day in court.
You say you were dismissed form the ashram in the 1980s?
July 1982. I did not "stay a devotee for 25 years afterwards." I had already been a devotee since early 1976.
Who told the manager about your queries of SB's private life - do you know?
Kutumba Rao, the ashram manager, said nothing about any such queries. Richard Beyer reacted with utmost rudeness, Howard Murphet with typical graciousness. (Yes, indeed, from any reader's point of view, ALL HEARSAY! It is supported or otherwise ONLY by testimony of many others who have known both persons over time!). More importantly did Howard Murphet know too? Gosh, he has denied the allegations so many times recently - it is unreal.
Like so many of us, he may not have known but believed that such great experiences of the sai phenomenon could not possibly include the notion that ssb is a molestor. Psychological denial is a powerful state, perhaps all the more so in the case of those of us who have gone down the 'guru' path. Please forgive me in the event that I do not post on any Board responses. Terrie is correct - there is my email: firstname.lastname@example.org
64: 11-04-01 TERRIE
Sparrow, try to stay in touch with that man. Maybe he'll be talking to someone who returns from the birthday celebrations! It will be very interesting to see what the birthday picture is.
63: 11-04-01 SPARROW
An elderly man who is still a devotee occasionally talks with my husband. Well, he called today and mentioned that he had spoken with someone who just got back from PN who said that there are HARDLY ANY FOREIGNERS (meaning non-Indians) there nowadays.
This man theorized that it was because of the tense political situation in the world right now, which certainly might be part of it, but I don't think it's the only reason. I'm wondering what it will be like around birthday time. Maybe the trust will pay a whole bunch of poor Indians to pack the place just so they can get the numbers they want.
62: 11-04-01 BARRY PITTARD
Lionel Fernandez, who recently co-ordinated the very successful action which culminated in the two-part TV program in Argentina, tells me that yesterday, Sunday, the producers ran a Part 3. This was a very sudden decision, and aimed to coincide with Goldstein's visit. Apparently, the producers intend to make public the fact that Goldstein said that he would only grant an interview if the TV company retracted the adverse commentary that was shown on the other programs.
It seems there is footage of Goldstein's and Gutter's discourses and some Conny Larsson-Sai Baba shots that, if I understand Lionel correctly (and I shall check with him) relate to interviews. There will also be comment on the fact that according to Goldstein, ssb saved all his devotees who worked at the Pentagon and WTC.
It will be asked: how can this ssb, who claims to be God, and who says that he is in all names and all forms of the deity, favour and rescue his devotees in the ssb name? A senior journalist has been trying to establish whether there are any instances where any ssb devotee did come to grief in the tragedies of September 11.
61: 11-02-01 BETH
Urawareness and Terrie,
While I also admit that I feel weird sometimes speaking against SSb, when I do not have first hand knowledge of his guilt, I do trust my intuitive sense after reading so very much from all over the world, that, of course, he IS guilty of something. Not that many people could have it wrong, or misperceive his actions. Still, I feel badly when I say things that are slanderous...it seems that it is not my place to say these things or to try to convince others of his guilt.
But, Terrie, I think you are right, it is the place of others who have first hand experience and knowledge of what goes on and has gone on at the Ashram, behind the scenes, and with SB's behavior. This is why I want to hear more from Barry, Hari, and others.
60: 11-01-01 MARSWALKER108
Sparrow,I heard about the birds comitting suicide in India again on the same talk show. This time they did not say 'crows' but said 'birds.' The birds commt suicide by flying almost straight down to hit the earth.
59: 11-01-01 TERRIE
Urawareness, you can write to Barry personally if you want to. His e-mail address is on the Sunrise Pipeline page. If he replies to some of your questions, please ask him if you can post his letter here, as we would all like to hear what he has to say. As far as I know, Barry does not visit the discussion boards. However, he sends his messages to sunrise to be posted.
I agree with you about the non-value of hearsay. That is one reason that I have 'retired' from the exposé, except for helping a little with Sunrise. The Sunrise staff will not emphasize the molestation stories because we don't know anyone personally who was molested. We also will no longer post letters by somene who says, "I know somone who was molested," or "I'm in contact with victims." If the so-called victims want to fight for what is right, then it is up to them to speak out and use their real names, not send their message via a third party. It is the victims who should be carrying the exposé, not those who are relying on hearsay.
We do accept some experiences as valid, such as Anthony Thomas' articles on what he sees on the Inner Planes. Therefore, those articles are on sunrise for everyone to read.
58: 11-01-01 URAWARENESS
Dear Barry and all,
Your story, I read it today, is very interesting. Why not get your point across by writing a serious book? Your tale has the ring of truth - not easily found in several other reports. I mean if we have the truth why should we need hearsay? That's my sore point with many messages on the boards, they seem to want to blame and condemn SB, but lack the needed factual details to do so. Thus, many of us, (on the fence), just pass their comments off as - half baked or lies.............
Back to Barry, You say you were dismissed form the ashram in the 1980s? Yet you stayed a devotee, for 25 years afterward. I take it thinking it was all a great big test!! Who told the manager about your queries of SB's private life - do you know? More importantly did Howard Murphet know too? Gosh, he has denied the allegations so many times recently - it is unreal.
My messages today are lengthy and I hope I have not bored anyone. But before I decide to put SB aside as really evil or wicked, after spending half my life adoring him, I want as much proof as possible - to sustain my departure.
Another point here, many people travelled in groups to see SB and enjoyed numerous interviews, but many of those groups were crooked! They operated successfully, even though devious in nature. Why? because many people valued an interview more than honesty. Even little old grey haired ladies who you would think butter would not melt in their mouths, would join crooked SB group in hopes of an interview.
The dirt and dishonour of this entire movement stems first and foremost from us, the ordinary seekers, who went along with it all to begin with....... If we can at least admit we are all a bit to blame, we can seek and find the truth, with more honour, more strength than we think we have,or possess.
57: 11-01-01 TERRIE
I for one would really like to hear directly from recent visitors to the ashram. My daughter visits there frequently, but she won't write a word about what is going on. Like the proverbial clam. The only 'fact' she has recently talked about is that there are still big crowds of westerners visiting the ashram. How big, I wonder?
56: 11-01-01 URAWARENESS
Dear Folk, I can read it better now. I think my mistake is to write early in the morning before the sleep has left my eyes. You will all have to forgive me my mistakes. I don't have any other time to write......:( Anyway, $40.00 is outlandish!!!!! Sorry but it is. Premanand yells about SB taking us all for a ride, and parting us from our money, then sells his books at an extremely high cost.................. Hmmmmm, one wonders about some folks and their intentions.
I think people over here should write a book or two. Especially those that have had access to SB and the upper level of the SB Org. Terrie, the security has tightened in the past few months to overwhelming levels. Worst by far than you will remember it. In 1999, the security was very scant to what it is now. I hope others can give their opinions of how the ashram is protected nowadays.
Do visitors to Ammaji have to go through security and frisking and all that stuff????? I doubt it..... Amma is coming to London in several weeks and I understand - nothing has changed. At odds with the SB fold, is it not? Amma can hug you, keep you close to her and have scant security, while the SB Security demands not only 'security on entry,' but specially chosen security girls eyeing your every move and controlling even where you sit.
I also understand there are women police sitting in the mandir during dashan, and extra bodyguards around SB!!!!! - I'd say yes, some of it maybe useful security, but more likely it is just a way to keep overseas people as uncomfortable as possible. This is their aim. Has been for several years. Don't know if it is SB's wish or just his staff - one has to wonder about it. Perhaps the Sai Movement has upset many people in India and they are afraid of reprisals??????.
The official excuse given - is a threat from the Tamil Tigers - but I am not convinced of that at all. It is my strong opinion, after this Spring, that the Sai Org. and others do not want to encourage westerners to visit. That is not the 'General Public' Westerners or overseas people. (other words us). They only want the VIPS and others working for the Sai Org. there. Can anyone else reveal more about the recent ashram setup? I would greatly appreciate it. I remember reading in Jack Hislop's book, My Baba and I, where SB told him, " that in future only those working for him would be allowed to have darshan."