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This document contains posts 89 to 162 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.

Anthony 162

06-05-2001 02:10 AM

Hi David

Well done on having the strength to resist. pretty amzing if anyone can really. I don't think any youngster needs to feel bad even if they don't manage to resist. It is hard to imagine a more difficult situation with their parents all wrapped up in him. What do you say to them!!!

A Sparrow 161

06-05-2001 12:32 AM

Marswalker ...

Since I know that you are a long time Yogananda devotee, could you shed some light on what Ram Das Awful's Yogananda death bed quote? Quite frankly, I don't believe it at all. If memory serves, I read that PY didn't even have a death bed, but died suddenly of a stroke while giving a discourse at a banquet or something. Set me straight if I'm wrong.

David ...

Did you tell your parents or anyone else about what raju did at the time? If so, did they doubt you? God bless you and I wish you success in getting your life togeter again!

David 160

06-04-2001 09:54 PM

I visited sb with my parents 5 years ago he called me up for interveiw six times and each time tried to force sexual contact on me. I have been in real turmoil since then and finally got some counseling just turning 20 and my life is beginning again. it was so evil I felt pressured and molested.

MarsWalker108 159

06-04-2001 05:15 PM

Hi Everyone,

Re:Ram Das and his site:

http://www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com/index2.html

I am a member of the UnityInDiversity site but at this point in time I have I have not been to post ableto post the message below:

Dear Ram Das,

I was shocked when reading your second website wherein you refer to Maitreya's statement that he is the planetary avatar and SSB is the universal avatar.

First, before we start, why did you not say that your statement was a direct quote from Benjamin Creme' s site:www.shareintl.org(click on 'Background Topics', scroll down and click on 'Frequently Asked Questions).

I honestly believe both ex and pro SSB devotees will want nothing to with Matreya!!! In my humble opinion, if the alleagations are true, SSB may be a boy scout compared to the sinister Maitreya. Ram Das, I believe only a little investigation on your part would have indicated this to you.

I first heard Benjamin Creme probably over 6 months ago on the popular overnight radio talk show, Coast To Coast AM(www.artbell.com) which now has 20 million listeners and can even be heard around the world on the internet. Creme touted his Savior as God Incarnate.

I want to point out that Creme on the show seemed to indicate that Sai Baba was only playing a minor role for good compared to the avatar Maitreya. This certainly seems to contradict the statement on your site.

Sean David Morton(www.delphiassociates.org), prominent writer, lecture, prophet, and TV producer has recently given me permission to quote parts or all of an article on Benjamin Creme from his 1995 newsletter(Delphi Associates Newsletter) entitled THE DARK PROPHET. First consider his first letter to me on this subject of March 13,2001:

Dear Dennis

Thanks for the info.

I interviewed Creme extensivly at his home in England in the spring of 1990. I published an extensive article in my newsletter called THE DARK PROPHET in 1995 when Creme and SHARE was announcing his imminent appearance.

When I dig it out, I will put it on the website at www.DelphiAssociates.org. Maybe a few things about Creme that people need to know. Like that he has been a card carrying Communist for 38 years(I Heard this from his own mouth!) and that he had been trained in Moscow, that only the UN should have n....s and that West "Must be destroyed and the wealth of the US redistributed, by force if neccesary," in order to impliment M.'s NWO.

SHARE is funded by the Rockefeller Foundation and now by the Gorbachav Trust, etc. Very nasty, pit of Hell kind of stuff! I go into lots more detail in the article, but needless to say, this dude scared me to death!!!!

All the best

Sean Morton

Love MarsWalker 108 TO BE CONTINUED

Anthony 158

06-04-2001 02:08 PM

Just thought I would throw this in.

"You are not here merely to make a living. You are

here in order to enable the world to live more amply,

with greater vision, with a finer spirit of hope and

achievement. You are here to enrich the world, and

you impoverish yourself if you forget the errand."

- (Thomas) Woodrow Wilson (1856-1924)

28th US President (D)

Tony O'Clery 157

06-04-2001 12:33 PM

This deluded Ram Das Awle has been pushing the kundalini excuse around the net K clubs, to people who know I might add....Here is a response from one moderator.

>Dear Ram Das Awle,

I can not. Not in good conscience. I read all the material and kept trying to keep an open mind but I know from personal experience that Kundalini can be ajusted across a room and requires no touching of any genitalia. All of the rationales that are used to explain these happenings could have been accomplished across a room or across the miles and also in a special dream. It is what it is.

Why it is being done in this manner and hurting so many people I do not have the wisdom to say. I can only say that I will not support it.<

A Sparrow 156

06-03-2001 12:24 PM

On the subject of improving vs. not improving while a devotee: I was one for nine years. During the first few years I would say that I improved as a person in many ways. I concentrated on developing the qualities that I thought raju wanted in his followers: patience, willingness to serve, equilibrium. For example, I wouldn't go into an emotional tailspin if my feelings were hurt as I often had prior to that. I became more accepting of other people as they were. I also became more creative, as I was so inspired by my guru. I sometimes spontaneously felt what seemed like bliss.

After a few years, however, I began to feel physically weak and debilitated. I was tired all the time and felt that I was aging rapidly (I'm in my late 50s). I was more psychically open than I ever had been before, which I thought must be a positive thing, but it was as though my energy was being syphoned out of the top of my head. I had little desire to take part in "the world", like working at a job or interacting with anyone outside of the raju group. I was increasingly depressed but didn't know why.

Looking back, I think (but can't prove) that this is the course that a lot of devotees take. Enthusiasm, almost euphoria, in the beginning, and a desire to "do everything right", followed by a gradual downhill slide into rigid thinking, mindless rule following, self-enforced separation from those who don't agree, aversion to work, and so on. It's as though all their personhood is gradually drained out of them. I had one friend who once proclaimed with a sigh, "I used to love to play Scrabble!". IOW, she couldn't play Scrabble any more because the "avatar" wouldn't approve.

On another occassion 2 long-time devotees told me that if raju told them to commit suicide, they would do it. Sick!

Andries 155

06-03-2001 04:00 AM

Dear Terrie, Tony and all,

About the calamity that happened to the Nepalese royal family. I thought that SSB had said that he will not protect his devotees unless they had surrendered totally and everything. In my humble opinion calamity happens to disciples of all gurus. Who is the guru that even prevents calamity when the disciple has not surrendered completely? I'll follow him/her right now without losing a minute.

Terrie, about strange moods when being a SSB devotee. Your experience is in contrast with my experience. I became more emotionally stabile when being a SSB devotee. Probably this has more to do with personal circumstances and common psychological processes than with being a devotee of SSB. Kind regards, Andries

Terrie 154

06-02-2001 02:32 PM

Edited by author 06-02-2001 02:33 PM

Tony:

Re: the massacre of the royal family of Nepal. That must have been the family that was visiting ssb when I was there in either 1997 or 1999!! (I forget which of the two trips I saw them there.) Yes, they seemed to be highly favored and received many interviews.

Why don't the ssb devotees wake up??? In real life he does NOT "protect his devotees." I've seen really unhappy things happen to devotees, and I remember having bizarre moods when I was a devotee. It's kind of scary. Maybe not "kind of," but REALLY scary.

Terrie

Lucideye 153

06-02-2001 12:43 PM

Dear Said,

you wrote:

<<Lucideye,

suing sai baba needs some amount of money, power, and luck. He has too many people on his payroll in India for me to be able to sue him and get a fair trial. I could never do it on my own. Thats why I need sai baba's grace by him suing me.>>

Thanks for your answer. Yes, you may be right.

It's so obvious why neither the Sai Trust nor SB himself sues anybody in spite of the masses of allegations against him and the trust. They know that they "have a skeleton in the cupboard", don't they?

I hope that - by SB's grace - the Sai trust or even he, himself will sue you and/or Hari and/or Tony very soon. ;)

But, I don't think that will happen since they know that almost none of them has a clean slate. Or why do they not sue anybody???

Love,

Lucideye

Said Khorramshahgol 152

06-02-2001 12:28 PM

Lucideye,

Tony O'Clery 151

06-02-2001 11:58 AM

sb devotees all massacred! King Birendra Queen Aishwarya etc. The young prince topped the lot, because they didn't like his girlfriend. Fat lot of good ehv and sb private visits did, or perhaps that's what did it? Anyway the great avatar demonstrated his impotence again, and couldn't save the family..Tony

Lucideye 150

06-01-2001 07:43 PM

Dear Said,

Why don't YOU sue Sai Baba?

I remember you describing your negative experiences with SB in The Findings. Love,

Lucideye

Lucideye 149

06-01-2001 07:40 PM

Dear Angela,

Sorry for calling you Andrea in my previous post.

I am from Germany and Andrea is quite common here.

Love,

Lucideye

Said Khorramshahgol 148

06-01-2001 06:03 PM

Can someone sue me too? Please? I would very much like sai baba or his org to sue me, it would be my dream come true. I have been exposing sai baba for years hoping that one day they would sue me, Andrea, are you saying that my dream is coming true? Well then, GREAT! I CAN'T WAIT!

Sai Baba, here I come, I am coming to get you! :o)

Hari Sampath 147

06-01-2001 03:33 PM

Anthony :

Can you please contact me at harisampath@hotmail.com ASAP ?

Thank you,

Hari Sampath.

Lucideye 146

06-01-2001 03:16 PM

Dear Andrea,

Are you a long time SB devotee? Or where does your spitefulness and malicious pleasure result from? However, the analogy of A Sparrow is excellent, i.e. sueing anybody for something that has been widely spread through masses of newspapers and magazines is ridiculous (like e.g. in the Bill Clinton issue). But, of course if you or your friends want to sue Hari Sampath or Mr. O'Clery, please please do so. You would only help to speed things up. And the objection of Hari Sampath is absolutely justifiable. "WHY DOESN'T THE SAI ORG OR SAI BABA SUE ANYBODY???" The answer is so obvious: They know that the accusations are true, or don't they? Don't be naive. Even devotees and leaders of centers know that they are true, but they deem them to be kundalini rasing, bad karma or try to rationalize them in other ways. But that does not work. Particularly not in a case of minors that do NOT want to do fellatio to an old man.

There are 3 stages of devotees dealing with the accusations:

The first goup deny the accusations. They claim, they are not true; they cannot be true because SB is the avatar of the age.

They do not want to investigate because millions of people cannot be wrong and SB must be divine.

The second group has heard and read too much and cannot remain in a state of blind believing. They believe that perhaps some things of "the rumors" and "the slander" is true, but SB, of course, only did it for the best of the boys and hasn't felt any sexual pleasure at all with them. They are the most creative constantly finding new excuses and rationalizations that perhaps could justify Baba's behaviour and often fear to talk to victims theirselves and to find out the truth.

The third group when hearing and/or about the "slander" has done the only right thing. They have talked to victims and investigated thoroughly (including watching the videos of the fake materializations). They have come to the point of view that such behaviour is NEITHER justifiale NOR rationalizable. It is the act of a person that cannot be, under no circumstances, an avatar.

Please investigate yourself and you will find out the truth.

Love,

Lucideye

145

06-01-2001 03:15 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-16-2001 12:30 PM

144

06-01-2001 03:04 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-16-2001 12:30 PM

Anthony 143

06-01-2001 01:36 PM

Andries.

Messages deleted at your request. Once messages are up, only the board owner can delete.

Hari

So glad you are there. You communicate well. Thank you for having the courage to act.

Tony

I am glad Ammachi does not have have the 'sb' stuff around. Although I follow no guru myself, I understand that she has a nice energy.

A sparrow. Thanks for that info also.

I don't believe it would be right for Ammachi to condemn him anyway - or anyone else for that matter. She has too many people around that are not in their own power. That puts her in a position of responsibility. We can say it becuase we don't have a bunch of people that are going to believe it JUST because we say it. We are not in a 'leader' capacity - so people will then look for themselves and decide if it is true for them.

142

06-01-2001 01:32 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-04-2001 02:06 PM

Tony O'Clery 141

06-01-2001 01:16 PM

Re Ammachi; There used to be a picture of sb but it was taken down some years ago. I believe. I am not a devotee of her but I went for the experience. I found quite an anti-sb situation re sairam bags, discussing him etc. I was a sb devotee at the time. Nirmal/Steve Beckow, the great publisher on the sai sites who quit sb was also an Ammachi visitor his wife was the Ammachi devotee I believe.

Hari Sampath 140

06-01-2001 12:03 PM

Angela,

Thanks for your suggestions about a lawyer. Actually, I have no "plight", since nobody is suing me, as yet. In any case, I am well advised legally, both in USA and in India.

I have 4 lawyers advising me, 2 in the US and 2 in India.

You still haven't addressed the basic issue I raised. My point is , if there should be a lawsuit filed against me for "slandering Sai Baba", all I would have to say in my defence is "Of course I mean every word I say . Proof is, even the FBI is lookng into the matter, please check this out".

Since the FBI is really looking into the matter, and there are official records, there is no question of me slandering SB, or having to "prove" anything.

This "lawsuit" would be the greatest thing that ever happened to the Sai Baba expose, as it would ensure that SB is completely investigated, which is happening even now.

The govt witnesses would NOT be character witnesses for me. They would be witnesses testifying to the fact that they had indeed received official complaints from me along with several statements, and they are looking into the matter.

This shows that the allegations against SB are not merely "slander" by the media, but very serious charges that are factually true, serious enough to merit official investigation.

When this is the case, who can sue me ??

In any case, the whole world knows about these facts about SB. Has he sued anyone so far ? why not ?. Even the UNESCO expressed itself strongly on the child abuse charges against SB. Is he suing the UNESCO for making that international media release ?

Guess what , All I would have to say in my defence, if sued by you or even SB is : My statements and the contents of my charges are NOT frivolous, but serious enough for even UNESCO to withdraw from the conference and publish a statement, for the FBI to look into it, for the British Parliament to discuss it, for the US dept of State spokesman to say this matter should be in Indian courts.

Is SB going to sue all these people ?

Why hasn't he done so ?

Because he knows his goose will be cooked.

He can sue India Today, The BBC, The London Telegraph and a dozen different media organizations . Why is he not doing it ? What is he scared of ?

Please answer these questions, and kindly ensure that SOMEONE sues me. PLEASE !!!!

Hari Sampath.

A Sparrow 139

06-01-2001 11:57 AM

I'm curious as to WHO is going to do the suing. Mr. raju himself? The US org? Angela? Any outraged devotee? We're discussing stuff here that has been widely publisized in respectacle periodicals throughout the world. It's hardly original. I wonder if someone could get sued for commenting on the internet, radio/ TV, or newspapers/magazines about Bill Clinton's exploits.

The higher ups in the US org know that raju does these things; they just think it's OK. I can hear it now: "But your honor; it's alright for for him to do this with young boys, because he's helping them with their sexual karma." That wouldn't quite fly in an American court. America is VERY big on the rights of minors, esp when it comes to sexual exploitation.

*******************

As for Ammachi; I don't know what her take on raju is at the present time. I doubt that she would publicly condemn him. It seems to be part of the guru ethical code not to dis each other openly. However, I know for a fact that at least some members of her entourage who spend much time with her do not think at all highly of him. It would seem strange if she thought he was the greatest and they didn't concur with that, as I'm sure they take everything she says very seriously.

Angela 138

06-01-2001 11:09 AM

To hari sampath,

Yes yes yes, I'm a bit of a bullshiter myself hari, but keep talking, I'm taking it all down. Suggest you discuss your plight with a real world lawyer. You don't seem to have a clue. Forget the parade of "US Gov Officials", they don't get involved in PERSONAL lawsuits. YOU have to "prove", all the nasty claims you've made, (before the court)to a judge. Charachter witnesses are not allowed. Only "material" witnesses (your fictitious "victims"). And they will have to pass muster with the court under cross examination, in respect to THEIR integrity and honesty. Oh, and You will have to bear the expense of flying them in and housing and feeding them for the duration of the trial (3 - 6 months). (They are Your witnesses). YOU are the one on trial.

Andries 137

06-01-2001 03:12 AM

Dear Anthony/administrator,

----URGENT REQUEST-----

Could you please delete the discussion between Ram Das Awle and Timothy Conway, messages 113,114,115

I had no right to place it on the internet w/o the consent of both of them. For some reason or another I'm not able to delete it.

Kind regards, Andries.

----URGENT REQUEST-----

Anthony 136

06-01-2001 02:24 AM

I meant Hari, not Tony. Thanks Hari for your statements and encouraging words. I passed your info on 'inner worksings of the ashram' around to heaps of people when you first posted it.

TONY

Re "no 'sb' stuff at Ammachi's" - -Do you know if there used to be 'sb' stuff there and it has now been withdrawn OR it was never there? Just curious.

The board has gone back to normal width, thank heavens.

135

05-31-2001 01:44 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-16-2001 12:30 PM

Hari Sampath 134

05-31-2001 01:21 PM

Angela,

If, my statements on the internet are not legally considered to be my own statements, and if that is a legal block to suing me, please do not hesitate to contact me.

I shall give signed and notarised statements for every single word I had ever posted on the internet, so that those planning to sue me can conclusively say these are my statements. If, even that is not sufficient, I shall get additional statements from the US Govt authorities, the Indian authorities, and also organizations like the UNESCO, media agencies like the BBC, India Today , etc, in which ALL of them will say that I had submitted written statements about the criminal activities of Sai Baba.

Please use these statements as well to approach a court in order to sue me.

I wish to remind you that libel holds good only for false statements.

I would consider myself to be blessed to be given an opportunity to repeat all these things before a court as well, as these are facts I can swear to, along with what any court will consider reasonable grounds.

Please do actively work with me on this, after all, you are helping your guru, and I am 100 % cooperating.

Hari Sampath.

Anthony 133

05-31-2001 01:12 PM

Good on you Tony. Damn right. What a court case it would be. All the rest of the abused would let go of their fear and come forward then.

On another note, this board has suddenly gone wide angle like the last one did. I didn't change anything and it is my board! I will have to try and get on to them to see what gives?

Hari Sampath 132

05-31-2001 01:05 PM

Dear Angela,

I am delighted to know that I am the subject of a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Unfortunately, the legal notice seems to have missed me.

In case there is any confusion about the address etc, please feel free to e-mail me, and I shall provide all the details.

Please ask those who are planning to sue me, to hurry up. I just cannot wait to prove everything in a court of law.

In case my various internet postings are not enough, let me give you more material.

I, Hari Sampath, resident of Chicago, IL, USA and an Indian National, hereby publicly state that Sathyanarayana Raju alias Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi, India, a self proclaimed godman, is a perverted child molestor. This above mentioned individual has actively participated in various crimes like murder, bribery of government officials, rape of minor boys, and cheating the public at large by claiming to have "divine powers". He is also involved in money laundering , with the active connivance of politicians in India .

Sathyanarayana Raju alias Sathya Sai Baba, is knowingly and actively assisted in his criminal activities by the officials of his organization all over the world.

I state that I had personally talked to several students of his institutions who had reported long time sexual abuse at his hands. If required by a law enforcement agency or a legal authority, I would be happy to provide at least 34 signed and sworn statements from students and other former devotees testifying to sexual abuse at the hands of Sathyanarayana Raju.

Hari Sampath.

Tony O'Clery 131

05-31-2001 12:23 PM

Quoting 'road show' gurus as approval for sb is ridiculous. They can be conned like the rest of us, and some have a need for other gurus not to be exposed lest it reflect on them.

All I can say is the last time I visited Ammachi some years ago, sb paraphenalia was unwelcome and sb devotees were looked on suspiciously. They know you know!!!!!

Tony O'Clery 130

05-31-2001 11:40 AM

She wrote:->·bel (l¥¹bel)

a. A FALSE PUBLICATION IN WRITING, PRINTING, OR TYPEWRITING OR IN SIGNS OR PICTURES THAT MALICIOUSLY DAMAGES A PERSON'S REPUTATION. <

Sai Baba is a pedophile, liar, cheat conjurer and an accessory to murder, so are his assistants and coordinators in all the Centres of this disgusting con. This includes Goldstein, Singh and many others.

Please sue me pretty please.....Tony O'Clery.

129

05-31-2001 08:24 AM

Deleted by topic administrator 07-01-2001 10:48 AM

Angela 128

05-31-2001 06:25 AM

Edited by author 05-31-2001 06:39 AM

Andries,

You wrote: "Where is the Yahoo club with Shagol and Hari Sampath? Can't find it anymore?"

Hari Sampath, is the defendant in a multi million dollar LIBEL lawsuit. He is being sued for libelous statements that he posted on internet chat and discussion boards at Yahoo and elsewhere. Now he has to prove that his allegations are true, or pay, pay, pay. And suprise suprise, the boys aren't flying in to help him out. And I doubt if he will post anything on the internet ever again. Ditto for several others, and many many more soon to be announced.

Choose your words carefully. What you say in the privacy of your own home is one thing. What you broadcast to all the world publically can cost you millions of dollars if you can not 'Prove your statements before a court of law'.

What you Don't say, can not be used against you.

Andries 127

05-31-2001 05:30 AM

Additional Letter from Frank Morales to http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/

Dear all,

Here is an additional letter by Frank Morales. I feel very thankful to him for writing such compassionate letters. Remember that he was not involved. He must have known how it felt. When I called him he told me it was comparable to losing a parent.

Love, Andries

-----------------------------------------

Dear Exit Baba,

Namaste. Thank you so much for your very kind letter. Needless to say, the massive response that

I've had from most current Sai followers in the last two days has been anything but kind. When I began

reading the accounts of abuse that have surfaced in the last few months, I had an overwhelming sense of deja

vu. I was with the Hare Krishna movement until 1984 and experienced many of the same instances of

abuse, lies and corruption that is currently being recounted by former disciples of Sai Baba. Personally, I

managed to retain my commitment to the philosophical and cultural background of what was a very corrupt

organization, and move on to continue on the spiritual path in a Hindu context...but with my eyes now wide

open! I felt it was important to tell Sai followers that they're not alone and they don't have to give up on God

because a human claiming to be God was a fake. Please feel free to put my letter up on your great web site

and to forward it to whoever you think would benefit from reading it. Continued success with your important

work. Take care.

Om Shanti,

Frank

At 11:18 AM 12/27/2000 +0100, you wrote:

Hi Frank,

Thank you very fine open letter, I will place it as soon as possible on the website www.exbaba.nl, we have

special translators (two ex-baba devotees) that can do this very perfectly,

Bye,

Exit Baba

----

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------

Frank Morales, M.A.

Languages and Cultures of Asia

University of Wisconsin-Madison

fmorale1@students.wisc.edu

Home (608) 288-0266

Dharma Central: http://www.dharmacentral.com/

"How many have not asked 'What is Truth' and at bottom hoped that vast spaces would intervene before

truth came so close to him that in the immediate now it would determine his duty for action at that very

moment?"

Soren Kierkegaard

Angela 126

05-30-2001 11:34 PM

Dear People,

I wish to bring an important matter to your attention. The matter is called "libel", and here is the legal definition of "libel":

li·bel (l¥¹bel)

a. A FALSE PUBLICATION IN WRITING, PRINTING, OR TYPEWRITING OR IN SIGNS OR PICTURES THAT MALICIOUSLY DAMAGES A PERSON'S REPUTATION.

b. THE ACT OR AN INSTANCE OF PRESENTING SUCH A STATEMENT TO THE PUBLIC.

When you commit libel, the person, or persons, who are the victims of your attack, have the right to bring you to trial and take away all your stuff, all your money, your home, car, computer, everything. And leave you with little more than the clothing on your back, and maybe with monthly payment for the rest of your life. If you libel someone on a public media with a wide audience such as TV or the "INTERNET", you should expect to be sued for tens of millions of dollars.

Companies who host these discussion boards are quick to hand over the your real name, and all personal information, when faced with the prospect of being named as a co-conspirator, or co-defendant, in a multi million dollar libel suit. On sites such as this, where no registration is required and personal information is not collected, you can be traced by the date stamp on your posting, and the server logs, back to your ISP. And your ISP knows who you are and where you live. So much for the myth of anonymity. All anti sites are downloaded daily and saved as evidence.

Two persons known to you all have been sued, and many more persons will be the recipients of libel suits, in months to come. You may be one of them. When you attack another person, making allegations "which you can not prove, in a court of law", then woe be to you.

If you want to engage in slander , you should discuss the ramifications with a lawyer FIRST.

Look before you leap.

ZERO TOLERANCE and NO MERCY, for LIBEL and SLANDER.

What you don't say can't be used against you.

A Sparrow 125

05-30-2001 11:34 PM

I came home from work tonight and clicked onto this site, expecting to see a couple of letters, and Behold! What did I find? At least an hour's worth of good reading! This is wonderful! I went to Mr. Ram Das' site and the poor bloke seems to believe EVERY pro-sb thing he's ever heard w/o reasearching it at all. As Terrie said, the Mohammed thing is KNOWN to be a crock, even among many devotees. The book, or series of writings ... "Ocean of Light" ... where it supposedly appears ... has been searched for that passage to no avail. As far as miraculous healings; possible, but how about the deaths of those who refused to seek medical help because they were convinced that they would be healed?

No question that sb is not like the rest of us, but it would seem that his extraordinary gifts have been misused in many instances.

A special Thank You to Andreis (?). I think it was you who shared the dialogues between TC and RD (can't recall his last name).

Tony O'Clery 124

05-30-2001 10:29 PM

That Ram Das's website is an experiment in schizophrenia when decompensating! It is obviously too painful to many devotees to face the truth that they are just ordinary humans called by a nobody, except a fraud.

Perhaps the EHV is expanding for the moment for it teaches nothing new, its advantage is it is a curriculum that's all.

Most sb devotees came in a weak and needy moment and nothing has changed, the have the 'true believer syndrome'. Most don't understand vedanta or what an avatar/realised person really is. sb's teachings aren't his and I notice on my last visit to an Ammachi hugging session, sb bags and paraphenalia were very much a no no. So it looks like they know the truth as well. I was still a devotee at the time!

sb devotees don't leave because it is their own need they cannot leave.....Tony

Cock & Bull 123

05-30-2001 10:11 PM

The following are the Hindu Avatars

Matsya

Varaha

Khoormah

Narasimha

Vamana

Parashurama

Rama

Balarama or Buddha

Krishna

Kalki (Yet to take place)

Neither is Shirdi Sai Baba,Raju or Prema are mentioned in the scriptures.All fabricated versions of Naadis,etc are being done at the behest of Raju.

Cock & Bull 122

05-30-2001 10:03 PM

Sometimes people like Raju should exist,otherwise how can the good people like us prevail over evil people like Raju.Raju in his delusion is targeting a particular audience.

This targeted audience once enmeshed in the Maya of Raju,will find it eternally difficult to be rational in their thinking.

I browsed a website by ram das,he is pathetic.Raju has been unable to stand on his own strength of convictions,and some of the things Raju has uttered is really true.Raju knows one day or the other,people will come to know of his lies and sleight of hand tricks,and pulled the trigger beforhand saying people will leave in droves.

Wonders of wonder is,if Raju dies before the age of 96,his devotees will dish out to the world new fabricated lies for eons.

Terrie 121

05-30-2001 08:08 PM

Lucideye, I think you might be right about the planetary karma idea. That thought gives me some sense of peace. Thanks!

Love,

Terrie

Lucideye 120

05-30-2001 07:54 PM

Dear Terrie,

I think it is a sort of planetary karma. Look, how many devotees baba has. However, I w as a devotee for about 3 years and am now 22 years old. So there's much time for me to live the teachings of Baba.

I am sorry for people who were devotees for 20 years and more only to find out now that baba obviously is not who he claims to be. But nevertheless, the teachings are real, unfortunately the teacher most probabaly not. love,

lucideye

Terrie 119

05-30-2001 07:21 PM

Ram Das sure has a lot of "internal" answers! Which could have come from who-knows-where, just like the Conversations With God books. Ram Das, we could use a few REAL external answers to your questions!! Answers from real people.

Terrie 118

05-30-2001 07:16 PM

Andries and Lucideye, that is such an important question you're discussing...WHY we were ssb devotees? From an early age my prayer always was, "Not my will but Thine, Oh Lord, be done."

So I ended up a ssb devotee for more than 20 years. During all that time I was unable to practice Yogananda's Kriya technique, a technique where each breath is said to bring a year's spiritual development. A technique which can bring the actual experience of God by withdrawing the energy from the outer world to the inner world of divine perception. (We cannot experience God in totality as long as we're tuned to the external sensory world.)

I still cannot answer the question of why I was taken in by ssb for so many years. I still don't know if it was some kind of karmic debt, or a necessary experience so I could help with the expose'. Or some other reason. I really don't know. I have no answer.

Andries, thanks so much for posting the Timothy Conway exchange. I've printed it out to keep in my files.

Love,

Terrie

Lucideye 117

05-30-2001 06:22 PM

Dear Andries,

you wrote:

<<It must have been only my bad karma that

made me a SSB devotee. I must have been a Nazi in my previous life or I betrayed my wife/husband. >>

I know, I was a man in WW II who tried to help and save people from the "enemy". I died in the process of helping somebody else. So, my karma is not so bad. At least that from my very previous incarnation. Nevertheless, I have been led to SB and you know what, I am very thankful for that. It has taught me a lot. Now, after learning about all of the misdeeds of Baba, I really do not worry about this, I am very thankful because the teachings (the sanathana dharma. Btw, not invented by SB) have "saved my life". Don't worry. Use the knowledge you have gained to manifest everything that you want to achieve by the simple acts of acting, thinking and speaking. What you think is what you what you get. Try to awaken your capability of astral projection, that is leaving the body consciously to even learn more. A good point to start at is: http://www.hilarion.com.

Love,

Lucideye

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Lucideye 116

05-30-2001 05:24 PM

Thank you, thank you, thank you, dear Andries

Very rarely read such a precious conversation and it truly shows the fanaticism and narrowmindedness of many of the still-SB devotees. I envy the wisdom and intelligence of Timothy Conway. I agree with him 100% in everything he has stated.

The following statement of Ram Das really reveals his true character: "I was recently with Amma, Tim (after receiving your first 'anti-Baba' letter), and internally asked Her about what you were doing. Five times during one night, including when I was a few feet away from Her on stage, I heard internally, "Tim is making a big mistake!" I then returned to Puttaparthy, and internally asked Baba during darshan, "Is that correct, Baba? Is Tim making a mistake?" "Yes," came the answer. "And he is going to hell for it." Of course, my dear brother, there is no reason why you should heed my 'inner voice'."

tztztz... *headshaking*

Love,

Lucideye

115

05-30-2001 04:07 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-01-2001 01:28 PM

114

05-30-2001 04:05 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-01-2001 01:28 PM

113

05-30-2001 04:04 PM

Deleted by topic administrator 06-01-2001 01:28 PM

Lucideye 112

05-30-2001 03:20 PM

Dear Andries,

Thanks for your kind notes.

I am not aware of this discussion.

Could you please guide me to it?

or post it here?

i am sure that besides the tedious discourses this is welcome since it is really interesting and not something that one has read thousands of times as a devotee. (nevertheless, i am very thankful for what i have learnt from this discourses when i was a devotee but enough is enough. read one, read all..., so to speak :))

now come and beat me up! :)

by the way, what does it prove or better disprove???

many thanks & much Love to all,

lucideye

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Andries 111

05-30-2001 03:17 PM

What happens to a devotee when she dies? & Linking to the darkness.

Dear Anthony,

I think lacked intuition. I never knew or felt slighlty that I linked to the darkness. It must have been only my bad karma that made me a SSB devotee. I must have been a Nazi in my previous life or I betrayed my wife/husband. Something like that. We clearly disagree about this subject. Kind regards, Andries

Anthony 110

05-30-2001 02:28 PM

Dr Barry

You are quite right, of course, with all the causes you mention for memory loss. There are also many others. Trauma/drugs/negative connections, age - as Terrie mentions, etc.

Without sounding too airy-fairy, there is also an esoteric reason for memory loss. As we become more aware, we move from the realms of the third dimension with its functions of æmemory and mental image pictures in the mindÆ in order to æknow aboutÆ things. We begin to lose memory and adopt intuitive knowing as we step closer to a realm where one simply knows. The tools used to know are no longer needed. I think you will find many millions (all ages) on this planet having memory problems due to this.

Terrie

I donÆt believe that we have left the Light. We are just learning û in the Light. Most of the people on the planet are really in the Light. Because people choose so often to be negative and critical, they end up reaping the energy that those thoughts attract. But they are in the Light.

Of course, we do have a small minority of people that really have left the light û such as æsbÆ and some of the key power controllers on the planet. The right to free will choice cannot exist if even God were to override it. Learning is learning and that is what we do when we make choices. We are here to learn and learn we will.

Angela

The word slander means an untrue statement about someone. None of that here. It is all true. Of course, it can be proved in court. Sheer weight of numbers will do it in the end as more children and young men keep coming forward as they let go of their fear of speaking out against him.

Andries

What you say would have validity in normal circumstances. But I believe this doesnÆt work when you make a connection to someone like æsbÆ. I will explain.

I believe we each have a wonderful Divine gift. It is our ability to recognise an energy that is in the light/truth and to equally recognise energies that have abandoned the light/source/God and now work with a different goal. If someone chooses to connect with the dark, they choose in that moment not to pay attention to their instinct/intuition. Everyone has it. There is a moment when you KNOW. Many choose to ignore it or not believe it.

So in connecting to æsb, what they have done is choose not to stay with light/god but to link themselves with the dark. They can fool themselves by saying they believe they are linked to God, but it doesnÆt work. They have chosen to ignore their god given ability to know what is what. They are already, at this point, in the dark realms. They donÆt go there. They are there. It is not a matter of karma although obviously that is present. It is a question of choice. They have CHOSEN to link to the dark. This is their free will and choice right.

I tend to agree that anyone who worships God in any form, etcàà. Someone who truly gives in service to God and goals of Light in the universe û canÆt really go wrong. But someone who worships æsbÆ is NOT worshipping God. He is the opposite to God.

By the way æ try to like what you must doÆ is a load of rubbish. No such thing as æmust doÆ. The right lead is æDo what resonates as right for you by following your heart, your interest and your excitement, and you will always love doing it. You will be giving your unique gift to Earth and playing your part in the overall plan.That is what I reckon anyway. But I could be totally wrong about everything. We each need to know for ourselves what is true.

Andries 109

05-30-2001 01:17 PM

What happens to devotees after they die?

Dear Terrie & Anthony,

God gave us free will. I agree. But God didn't give us omniscience. So we never can be sure our Ishta Devatta (Chosen deity) is okay unless we have personal experience with this Ishta. In the case of SSB a few young men claim to have the experience of sexual molestation. But apart from those few other people can't be 100% sure. Some devotees worship SSB as God so they will go to God or heaven when they die. God is impartial. Of course people who have an opinion about SSB without thorough impartial investigation may suffer some minor karmic consequences of this sin. But they will surely not go to the dark realms only because of this. How can anyone who has faith in God's love believe this? My opinion is in accordance with the Bhagavad Gita in which Sri Krishna said that anyone who worships God in any form will come to Sri Krishna (God). We can worship any object without harm as if it were God as long as the devotees' feelings about this object are pure. Personally I have never experienced any of SSB's influence as dark, like you, Terrie. Although I got emotional problems after being too strict with some of SSB's teachings i.e. "Try to like what you must do" Apologies for any mistakes in English. I don't live in an English speaking country.

Thanks in advance for your reaction

Kind regards, Andries

Terrie 108

05-30-2001 12:53 PM

Andries, I changed my post. Usually I don't go on line before my morning meditation, which puts me more in touch with Spirit. Today I didn't meditate first due to waiting for a very early business phone call. It's not a good idea to put work before meditation. The call has come and gone. I will now sign off and go meditate! Talk to you this evening maybe.

Love,

Terrie

Andries 107

05-30-2001 12:27 PM

Dear Terrie,

I think you're being to strict to Angela

A lawsuit against people who slander SSB is reasonable if Angela thinks that the allegations are not true.

Terrie 106

05-30-2001 12:15 PM

Edited by author 05-30-2001 12:41 PM

Angela, honey, why do you feel the need to threaten us?? If ssb is God, he really doesn't need anyone to defend him. I'm sure that he can take care of himself.

Terrie 105

05-30-2001 11:58 AM

Dear Dr. Barry,

I have been to the doctors and had all the tests (negative results), as I was fully insured through an HMO!! The doctors for the physical body, the counselors, a psychologist (for unexplainable depression). These symptoms happened long before the cell phone era. I don't use a cell phone anyhow.

I notice that I'm slowly feeling better and better, and my depression vanished virtually the day I came to believe that ssb was a fraud. And if you read my posts, you'll notice that I don't sound muddled and unsure. But thanks for your suggestions. You are right. There are many causes for memory loss, not the least of which is age!

I'm careful with my diet (I follow the health and nutrition rules) and have had NO health problems at all since becoming an ex-devotee. Many other devotees have experienced mental, emotional and physical problems they can't explain. Ex-deovtees?? Let's hear from you.

Sincerely,

Terrie

Angela 104

05-30-2001 11:51 AM

Edited by author 05-30-2001 11:54 AM

Dear Hen & Cow,

You wrote: "I talk with couple of people mention.They all seem sincere. They say,going to prosecute.Hari sampat at chicago suburbs and cock & bull in Minneapolis"

That is correct. There are many many more such libel and slander suits being prepared. Freedom of speach, is one thing, slander is quite a different matter. Watch your words people once spoken they can not be taken back, and you are VERY traceable.

Terrie 103

05-30-2001 11:41 AM

Edited by author 05-30-2001 11:42 AM

What happens to devotees after they die?

I've read many places that wherever a person's mind and heart are, that is the place they create or go to after death. Reading what Anthony wrote, I believe he meant that not even God will go against a person's beliefs.

God gave us all FREE WILL! So he cannot "send a person to heaven" if that person's own mind keeps him or her in bondage to a lower force. (Otherwise God would not have let any of us leave the light, and we have all left the light or we wouldn't be here learning and suffering on the earth.)

And the ssb force of influence is very powerful and (in retrospect, as an ex-devotee looking back in) DARK!!

But I'm sure that Anthony will answer this question himself.

Love,

Terrie

Dr Charles Berry 102

05-30-2001 11:36 AM

Edited by author 05-30-2001 11:38 AM

Terrie,

Memory problems can be caused by many things. I would like to suggest that you consult a medical doctor before diagnosing your problem yourself and giving advice to others (who may have more serious problems).

Some common causes of memory deficit are: Organic brain disease such as lesions, tumors, cancer, tropical pork tape worm (in the brain). Also the vast majority (but not all) of people who use cell phones, experience memory deficit disorder, which can range from mild to amnesiac. There are also nutritional deficiencies which can cause memory deficit. MRI, CAT scans, and PET scans of the head can cause serious memory problems in some people.

Terrie 101

05-30-2001 11:30 AM

Re: the web site Andries asked about:

The credibility of the author of that web site is in serious question. He gives the names of spiritual teachers and says they say that ssb is God. I am checking out these sources. So far, I've made these discoveries:

(1) The Mohammed "prophecy" has been completely disproved. No such reference exists in the spiritual writings of that religion. Even devotees know this and will tell you that the story is a fake. (Which raises the question: WHO started this story?? The ssb Trust???)

(2) If Yogananda said that ssb was God, surely his organization would tell people this. I am sending the alleged Yogananda quote to his organization and asking them to comment on it. I believe the Yogananda quote is a complete fiction.

(3) I personally know Satchidananda and am in communication with him about his alleged quote supporting ssb, as well as Mother Krishnabai's quote. Mother Krishnabai died some years ago, but Satchidananda had daily contact with her as the "next in line" to run the ashram. I will post his reply on the Internet.

The site appears to be ssb propoganda, pure and simple, full of lies and false information.

Terrie 100

05-30-2001 11:17 AM

Dear Andries,

About your concentration problems: It's been my experience as a devotee for 20+ years that the connection to ssb definitely affects our minds. I often felt confused and isolated and depressed. Also (seriously) my memory banks seemed to be erased.

A good friend I know who is still a devotee does not remember conversations about Prasanthi Nilayam we had two years ago. She has no recollection of what she told me and she is young, in her 30s. I have seen her very sharp intelligent mind erode over the years. Now she simply repeats ssb's words.

I believe that the ssb energy has a powerful effect on the mind and emotions. I especially felt the effect in my head. This energy hangs around our houses too. We used to have ssb bhajans in my house. Once a new person came. We had a sign-up book. This lady could not remember her address to write it in the book!! She was very embaressed, and she was not old either. I could not really talk to people in that room. We would go outside and sit on the porch to talk!!

This is the effect of the ssb energy on people's minds in my experience. It's really frightening. It's like a science fiction movie there people are put in a machine and their minds are erased. Then they're given a program to repeat to others. (I am still recovering, 8 months after becoming an ex-devotee.)

Love,

Terrie

Andries 99

05-30-2001 11:09 AM

Dear all,

What do you think of the following website?

http://www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com

Are you all aware of the discussion between the website's author, Ram Das Awle, and Timothy Conway?

I have the discussion but it is difficult to post it here because it is very long.

Kind regards, Andries

Hen & Cow 98

05-30-2001 09:44 AM

I talk with couple of people mention.They all seem sincere.They also tell babaji do many more bad things too.They say,going to prosecute.Hari sampat at chicago suburbs and cock & bull in Minneapolis,nobody giving their tel no,may i check with you Lucideye if you successful.

Andries 97

05-30-2001 08:13 AM

Dear all,

Is it normal that I have concentration problems for more than 6 months at my work because of SSB? First because of the tensions caused by the allegations. And now because of the mourning about my disillusionment that came 1 month ago. Are the any other people who have experienced this? Please let me know. Thanks.

Andries 96

05-30-2001 06:27 AM

Hi Anthony,

About what happens when an SSB devotee dies. The Good Lord is impartial so if this devotee is a good person and sincerely believes in SSB she will go to heaven. There are still in my humble opinion may good reasons to believe in SSB and there are many big intellectual and emotional barriers for a devotee to become an ex-devotee. So the Good Lord will forgive. What's your opinion?

Let's not be fanatics who try to convert SSB devotees at all cost.

Where is the Yahoo club with Shagol and Hari Sampath? Can't find it anymore? Thanks!

Terrie 95

05-29-2001 07:18 PM

Angela, the ex-devotees don't sound like the lunatic fringe. But the pro-ssb people sure don't sound very rational. Read Margaret, for example. There's no attempt in her post or in your own post to discuss anything rational.

Only the long discourses or filth are deleted from this board. Notice that both your post and Margaret's are remaining.

I was a devotee for 20+ years. Trips to India and Prasanthi. Many years in ssb centers. I bought practically every book written on ssb. Have you been a devotee that long? Why not investigate WHY some of us are now ex-devotees??

See www.saibabaguru.com and The Findings on the web.

Love,

Terrie

Anthony 94

05-29-2001 01:24 PM

A Sparrow is exactly right as regards what gets deleted on this board. There is no place here for filthy language.

There is also no place for long 'sb' discourses on this board. Anyone that wants to read his stuff can easily find websites that pamper to him. They don't come to this board to read the same thing they have thrown at them all the time. They come because they have doubts and want to be able to look at other people's viewpoints - so they can make a more informed choice.

We aren't forcing anything. free will and choice exists to accept or not. When one listens to the heart and lets intuition be the guide, it is amazing what incredible perception and knowing we all have. Pity we don't always listen to it.

A Sparrow 93

05-29-2001 11:41 AM

Angela ... Not so. What gets deleted are the tedious discourses and, I assume, postings of a pornagraphic nature. Rational messages, pro or con, are welcome.

I just wonder why so many pro sb folks can only hurl insults and threats at those who don't agree with them. Is that what their master wants them to do? I was a devotee for almost a decade and my understanding was that he discouraged that kind of aggressive and spiteful behavior. Funny. It seems that the ones who learned the most from "his teachings" are the ones who left.

Margaret 90

05-27-2001 08:56 PM

Yes it true the Sai detractors are like a fly on the ear of the elephant. Have you ever seen an elephant? Have you ever seen what happens to a fly that lands on it's ear?

Well it's very interesting. The ear flaps back against the elephants body and the dumb fly is squashed. End of fly.

Lucideye 89

05-27-2001 02:06 PM

Additionally to the following, please try to get the phone numbers of marswalker and happyaghori which I do not know myself.

The ones to that is no area code given are located in the Netherlands. Of course, there are many many more but I that should be enough to inquire at first. Please contact David & Faye Bailey for further numbers.

CONNY LARSSON

Director of KSrnan Institute

Tostebo Gods

610 40 Gusum

Sweden

phone 0046/123 23048, fax 23015,

or:

phone: 0049-123-230 03

Faxnr: 0049-123-230 15

e-mail address " conny@email.com

David & Faye Bailey

P.O.Box 35, Conwy

LL 32 8 ZN, North Wales UK

Tel: 0044-1492-660-477

Fax: 0044-1492-660-488

e-mail: baileydf@aol.com

Stijn Riemersma

Molengouw 46a

1151 CJ Broek in Waterland

Telefoon: 020-4031416

Email: s.riemersma@planet.nl

Klaas en Jenny Knol

Rolandseck 120

6865 AG Doorwerth

Nederland

Telefoon/fax: 0263343194

Email: klaas-jenny@hetnet.nl

Jaap Hutte

Pascalstraat 27

7323 EX Apeldoorn

Nederland

Telefoon: 0553660772

Email: hutte.1@hccnet.nl

Hortense Quijs

St. Antoniuslaan 52a

6261 XK Maastricht

Telefoon: 0433253857

Email: h.quijs@planet.nl

Frank Morales

International Sanatana Dharma Society

P.O. Box 46003

Madison, WI, USA 53744-6003

(608) 288-0266

fmorales@dharmacentral.com

www.dharmacentral.com

Glen Meloy

PO Box 3510

Palm Desert, CA,

USA 92261-3510

yesontruth@earthlink.net

Ella Evers

4466 Fox Hollow Road

Eugene

OR 97405

U.S.A

Email: ellaev@juno.com

Jaap Hutte

Pascalstraat 27

7323 EX Apeldoorn

Telefoon: 0553660772

Email: hutte.1@hccnet.nl

Klaas en Jenny Knol

Rolandseck 120

6865 AG Doorwerth

Telefoon/fax: 0263343194

Email: klaas-jenny@hetnet.nl

Richard Kuhn

GERMANY

Tel.Nr. 0049-(0)8234-42330

Email: ric.kuhn@t-online.de

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