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pageThis document contains posts 163-284 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic Board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from the bottom to the top.
Terrie 284
06-11-2001 08:38 PM
THE MOSQUITO STORY is not quite right. Yogananda was bitten the night his guru, Sri Yukteswar, did not give the usual instructions to draw the curtains around the bed. When Yogananda aroused Sri Yukteswar, he said to his hapless disciple, "Why don't you go to bed?...Change yourself. Be rid of the mosquito consciousness." After that, not one mosquito ventured near Yogananda. (Autobiograhy of a Yogi, page 109, SRF 1981)
Thus is the potential power of our minds. If we could tap that power, no raju could have any effect on us at all. That might be the best weapon of all against ssb. Simply mentally turn away and refuse to be bothered by him or his astral assistants. Laugh at them. Sing a Christian hymn or a chant totally unrelated to ssb. It worked for me.
Be careful to quote Yogananda correctly on this site. Two of us here have all the books and will check out any quote or reference.
Now I'll try to be real quiet so everyone else has a chance to post.
ohiopeace 283
06-11-2001 02:31 PM
Sri Yogananda and Sri Yukteswar..
" Sleep inside the mosquito curtain; the insects can do no harm: so also, do not allow the insects of kama, krodha, etc. to harm you; get inside the curtain of Sadhana while you are in the world. Be in the world, but do not let the world into you. That is the the sign of Viveka."
Mosquito consciousness in the Yogananda autobiography.
Sri Yukteswar with no mosquito
curtains was unmolested all night while Yogananda
sleeping in a bed next to him was bitten all
night though heavily curtained with mosquito
netting. In the morning Yukteswar said to him
(paraphrased) "Your fear of the mosquitos gives
you mosquito consciousness which attracts them
to you."
...
luvdeglobal 282
06-11-2001 02:10 PM
I particularly find it rather odd,that SSB's social work capacity should equate him to God.For that matter none of the Gods that have descended to earth proclaimed to be God.But SSB in order to gain credibility had to to use Shirdi Sai Baba's name & fame.SSB is what he is,because of his poorva janma punya or karma.
The ability to attract people by sleight of hands tricks did not ever make me go and visit SSB at PN.I just did not want to risk an oppurtunity that my beloved Shirdi Sai Baba could have reincarnated and that i should miss it.Thats all.I checked him out,he is a fraud with noble intentions,extremely well acted in calculated moves.
I dare challenge SSB to produce or materialise anything bigger than his palm.Even the Lingam during Shivarathri is just re-gurgitation sometimes and now the lingam itself is placed in the hand kerchief.
I will be the last person to cast aspersion on anybody leave alone SSB.SSB is conducting a spiritual entertainment and he is ,no doubt is in the right country and the right people to assist him.Its sad that i realise now,how people want to be deceived in the name of God.
SSB needs of sexual perversion is the worst sin that he has committed.
Anthony 281
06-11-2001 08:41 AM
Lucideye
Thank you so much for that. Speaks for many I am sure.
Lucideye 280
06-11-2001 04:36 AM
Dear Shelly,
you wrote:
[...]
>Live and let live.
>
>What other wish to believe in, and how they live their lives is >really none of your business.
>
>If some wish to believe that Sathya Sai Baba, is God, that's >their business, let them live in peace. If others wish to pour >all their wealth into the trust accounts of Indian money gurus, >in exchange for hugs and flattery, let them. Humans learn best >from their painful mistakes, not from criticism, pompous
>pronouncements, or fearful tales of hell fire and brimstone.
Sorry, but it seems that you did not get the point here. SB has molested hundreds of boys and young men over the years. Do you still think 'live and let live' is the solution here? I suppose you practize a Vedic-oriented spirituality and do believe in Rama respectively the Ramayana, don't you? Do you think Rama acted wrong back then? From your point of your view he should have lived and let live, but that doesn't work karmically. That is an important universal principle that you do not seem to have understood. >The world is ALL God's creation, the good the bad and the ugly. >We didn't create it. We didn't ask to be here. We can't even >leave at our convenience. Free will is a popular myth. We have >about as much free will as leaves in the wind. So why should we >go about criticising others.
That is a dangerous belief. To think that there is no or at least almost no free will. That implies that God is responsible for everything and your suffering is God punishing you. That is wrong. Please get responsible for yourself and realize that YOU are the creator and fully responsible for your fate and/or destiny. You have an existential program. That is the plan about what you came here to achieve. You can be succesful or you can fail. It depends on you! YOU are the creator and can create everything that you want to by the simple acts of thinking, speeking and acting. No more, no less. So please recognize that you have free will. The Advaita approach has to be understood very well before you can claim that there is no free will. If it is understood in an unopportune way (like in your case) it is very "dangerous", if one can say so.
>Only the will of God prevails. In all matters, in all lands, in >all ways, at all times, everything that happens, happens in >accordance with the will of the Director of the play.
Yes, but the creator is primarily the witness. Please understand that. Love,
Lucideye
Anthony 279
06-11-2001 02:33 AM
Krishna
You have been asked to make ONE clear post instead of a run of them. This is the second and LAST request.
Terrie
I don't think this is working. We now have Krishna's long posts and equally long additions with your edited posts of his posts. While the points may be a little clearer, they are still too long and lengthy. It is kind of you to edit, but krishna has ignored the request for a single communication. And I don't believe in continued accidental slips of repeated messages. Sorry, it may be tough but to keep this board readable, there will be no further warnings given re rambling repeated messages.
This board has turned into a krishna sounding board with much in the postings promoting 'sb' directly and indirectly. In addition, long postings made the board unreadable and by his attacking of many gurus - makes this board something it is not.
krishna ....RAJU IS SINCERE AND GENUINE IN HIS CHARITABLE ACTIVITIES,Yes he does want to help humanity, which is a differnt aspect of his personality. This charitable trait in him, gives him added spiritual strength and divinity.)
The critisms of whoever it is complaining that pro 'sb' people aren't allowed to speak here is untrue. It is also a waste of time to try and make us feel guilty and so give in to rambling messages. Doesn't cut any ice here. Wc allow fair comment, but those in love with 'sb' can praise him on the many appropriate sites for such things. This board is to expose him and to assist devotees get over the trauma involved in leaving his capturing energy.
278
06-10-2001 10:18 PM
Tony O'Clery 258
06-10-2001 01:19 PM ET (US)
You all realise, I hope that krishna is our old friend rmkrs from the yahoo club. Our prolific poster there! I have no problem with him being here as long as he and saiom don't use all their akas to block this board like the yahoo one.
Yes, Tony is Right.
However, lets not see 'suckingsounds' on this board either...
Terrie 267
06-10-2001 07:04 PM
Edited by author 06-10-2001 07:11 PM
Saishoot (Dr. S.Siva??):
We are quite willing to discuss issues, but you haven't opened any discussion or replied to any posts. All you did was post a long list of supposed cult characteristics (and I think, an article that someone else had written).
I guess most of us here aren't interested in whether the ssb organization is or is not a cult. There are too many different opinions of what a cult is. For myself, I'm just not interested. Posting on one idea at a time...that's different. But you haven't done that.
As usual, you don't sound like a very nice person in your post. Pedantic, sarcastic and rather scornful of anyone who doesn't hold the same views as you do.
Do you think this attitude would draw devotees to ssb?? What do you want to talk about?? I am interested in SPECIFICS, not general concepts that skirt the real issues surrounding ssb.
Terrie
P.S. It doesn't seem that real ssb devotees are interested in posting here. Only one person posted rather extensively, and she kept threatening law suits against ex-devotees. Again, would any poetential ssb devotees be drawn to that kind of attitude? She disappeared when two ex-devotees begged her to sue them.
It seems that the ssb devotees can only offer threats and long pedantic speeches. Why can't they logically discuss issues?? I really wonder.
Terrie 266
06-10-2001 06:22 PM
Dear Krishna_744,
Now that several hundred commas have been removed from your posts and most of the grammar and spelling are corrected, I see that you have made some very interesting points:
(1) Raju has a lot more power than many ex-devotees give him credit for. I think we'd call this OCCULT power rather than spiritual power. The word spiritual generally refers to power connected to God and the Light. Raju's power is dark.
(2) You've said that it doesn't do much good discussing raju's sexual habits, and exposing these isn't the way to trap raju. What, then, should we be doing to keep raju from expanding his realm of devotees? You said in one post that he had about 3 more years without being touched.
(3) You mention that you talked about gurus on David Lane's site. As I agree with you as to who is genuine and who isn't, please give the dates and/or message numbers. There must be thousands of messages on that board. Thank you.
(4) Ex-devotees should be careful which guru they follow after leaving raju. They could be just as badly off if that guru isn't genuine (at one with God). I agree with you there. The only genuine Gurus I'm sure of are Yogananda's line of Gurus.
There may be more. I just haven't had experience with them. If I sense NO vibrations in the presence of a supposed guru, or feel vaguely restless, then I right away assume that the person isn't a real guru. I never sensed anything from raju in person, except the one time he zapped me with a shakti gaze. I did, however, sense a lot of energy in the books written by devotees. I love books. Maybe that's why.
I think WHO is genuine is very important because when raju's teachings hit a wrong note (such as raju stating that he is god in human form," we need to know what the real Gurus say about those teachings.
Love,
Terrie
SAISHOOT 265
Terrie 259
06-10-2001 03:34 PM
Tony, no I didn't realize that. I never got to know the Yahoo clubs very well. I got disgusted with all the crazy posts. Are you sure of 744's identity??
Tony O'Clery 258
06-10-2001 01:19 PM
You all realise, I hope that krishna is our old friend rmkrs from the yahoo club. Our prolific poster there! I have no problem with him being here as long as he and saiom don't use all their akas to block this board like the yahoo one.
Terrie 257
06-10-2001 12:45 PM
Thank you, Krishna_744, for trusting me to edit your posts.
Anthony, when you notice that I have re-posted one of Krishna's messages, will you please delete the old one?? I'll give the old message number in the new posts for your reference. Thanks.
Terrie
Anthony 256
06-10-2001 12:03 PM
I thought this relevant.
After a while you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul.
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And that company doesn't mean security.
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises.
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head held up and your eyes open,
And with the grace of an adult
Not the grief of a child.
And you learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrows ground is too uncertain
For your plans.
After a while you learn that even sunshine
Burns if you get too much.
So plant your own garden and decorate your own soul
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you will learn that you can endure
That you are really special
And that you really do have worth.
So live to learn and love yourself
In doing so, you will learn to live.
Anthony 255
06-10-2001 03:10 AM
Just a reminder that this board is really about 'sb' and not Ammachi or others. I think if people have considerations about other gurus they could perhaps start a new topic on that area. If our board appears to knock every guru going, it loses its credibility. We have a specific purpose on this board.
Krishna
A couple of posts have been deleted - one that was an exact repeat and another than was repetetive in its content. I suggest you perhaps write out your message so that your thought is expressed once and clearly and then post one post.
06-10-2001 12:37 AM
terrie:
Yes, You can edit, My english content, and what ever you feel ,suits this forum.
My email is Krishna_744@yahoo.com.
THere is no need for me to inspect ,the edited mesages. Please feel free to post them, without my inspection.
Thats fine by me.
253
Terrie 251
06-09-2001 09:07 PM
Marswalker, just because the author of the Ram Das site SAID there were more than 1200 hits doesn't mean that there actually were that many hits. I reserve the right to be a skeptic about that figure!!
There's more than a tinge of fanaticism on that site, and much less-than-factual information, and also misquotes by other gurus such as Yogananda. That's why I'm a skeptic about the number of supposed hits.
MarsWalker108 250
06-09-2001 05:42 PM
Dear Dr. Sabapathy Siva,
Do you believe in fair play? I have sent many e-mails asking why I can't post anymore on the UniityInDiversity site. I have recieved no answers- only the silent treatment.
Love, MarsWalker108
MarsWalker108 249
06-09-2001 05:36 PM
Edited by author 06-09-2001 05:37 PM
Hi Andries,
A few points:
1) The reason I addressed the Ram Das situation in the first place is that his sites had over 1200 hits in just the first few days.
2) I felt important to show that he was not credible and a good way would be to comment on his statements concerning Benjamin Creme and Meitreya. I felt it was very obvious that that he had not checked out Creme.
3) It was not my intention to imply that Kathleen Keeting was credible. I pointing out that the host of the radio show listened to by 20 million people would not allow Keeting to name the AC on the show because Creme he is so controversal. He has never done anything like this before.
4) Please e-mail me at marswalker108@hotmail.com for a copy of Morton's article and interview of Creme.
Love,MarsWarker108
248
A Sparrow 240
06-09-2001 02:43 PM
Krishna, you always start off with a sensible post and then follow it with many others that deteriorate more and more as they go along, so how about just posting once every few days? You would be contributing something that way, as long as you leave out the smut and stick to the topic.
How can you compare Ammachi's hugs with the oilings? People go to A knowing they will get a hug and that's what they want, whereas the oilings come as a shock to many and leave them thoroughly confused. A normal parent may embrace a child, but not play with its genitals. Friends embrace when they meet; they don't grab each other's crotches (most don't, anyway). Besides, it hardly stops with oilings, which are small potatoes compared to some of the stuff he does. This isn't said to promote A; just to point out the ridiculousness of the comparison.
06-09-2001 02:30 PM
Edited by author 06-09-2001 02:33 PM
Dr. Siva, if you want people to read your posts on this board, keep them reasonably short. Otherwise readers will just skip over them. We aren't overly fond of long lists of supposed cult or non-cult characteristics. Who cares? I don't. Seeing what goes on with ssb is enough for me...molestations, a totally corrupt organization, etc.
If you post only one or two ideas at any one time, you might get some thoughtful responses from readers.
Terrie 236
06-09-2001 02:21 PM
To Krishna_744: It isn't that some of us don't welcome your posts. It's just that we don't want to see 100 posts by one person. On the Yahoo site, you posted so many times that there was no space for anyone else. So this looked like spam to some of us. So use descretion and limit the number of your posts.
Re: Ammachi, some people have said on the boards that ssb devotees and devotional articles are not welcome at her meetings. Perphaps the two of them are in competition for devotees!! I was never comfortable at Ammachi gatherings. The energy felt strange to me.
Anthony 235
06-09-2001 02:17 PM
In response to the last post re the cult points. I have only glanced at it, but my thoughts immediately went to 'sb' recently banning his devotees in the ashram, under threat of banishment forever from his grace, if anyone spoke of the lies that were being spread around about him.
'sb' himself does the fund raising!!!
I was in a cult and I can assure you that tons of these points are totally incorrect. But after all it is only a couple of people's opinions of what constitutes a cult.
Krishna Wouldn't it be a pity if we couldn't pass love through hugging. What a sad world it would be.
Andries 232
06-09-2001 08:23 AM
Dear A Sparrow, Anthony and all,
Regarding your posts nr. 215 and 217 and Anthony's post 219. Our thoughts are very much on the same line with regards to intuition. SSB has given the devotees the advice to ask God in case they are doubting about something. I have followed his advice quite often. And indeed I noticed that this advice works quite well for many subjects for me but with very clear exceptions of two i.e.
1. girlfriend/partner
2. finding a good guru and assessing my present guru
The reason is obvious. It is because of the strong emotions involved in those 2 subjects. Love makes a person blind as the saying goes.
I don't think I am able to hear my intuition about those two subjects now. It will be just trial and error hoping that my intuition will grow in this life or my next. The sad thing is that there are millions of people like me. I think I'll opt for the arranged marriage. Ha, Ha.
To grow more detached from a subject to develop intuition sounds very Buddhist to me. Not very much Hindu-like with its fostering of devotion. But I may be wrong.
I think I have to continue to analyze all the many prejudices, emotions and so forth that distort my inuition. I can not get rid of all those distorting emotions right away but I can at least take into consideration that they distort my judgment. A lot of work to do.
I copied hereunder some relevant sentences of Frank Morales' open letter from http://www.saibabaguru.com/
"For those who have previously been - or who still may continue to be - sincere followers of Sai Baba, now is not the time to falter on the spiritual path. For such followers, this is a time for deep and patient reflection, self-introspection and an open-minded assessment of precisely what it means to be a sincere aspirant after Truth. "
"For the followers of Sanatana Dharma, all personal ethical decisions, all philosophical judgements and all spiritual practices
(sadhana) must be in accord with three specific criteria. ..... 3) Viveka: One's own inherent capacity for intelligent discernment of truth versus untruth, reality versus illusion. It is only by deriving knowledge of the Absolute in accordance with these three epistemic mechanisms that we avoid being cheated by either our own internal tendencies toward self-delusion, or by external false teachers. "
Many thanks to Alexandra for her references. And Terrie I have to think about your important post nr. 210.
Kind regards, Andries
231
Anthony 221
06-09-2001 02:23 AM
For anyone wanting to read what really goes on in the ashram of æsbÆ you may like to refer to the articles on the following site.
www.saibabaguru.com - Click on left hand side of page on æMyths and facts, and 4 famous miraclesÆ
Anthony 220
06-09-2001 02:22 AM
Tony
Unfortunately, I donÆt think æsbÆ is irrelevant. If I did, I wouldnÆt be here doing this. There are lots of souls caught up in his energy and IÆd like to do my bit to give them a chance to rethink their future.
Anthony 219
06-09-2001 02:21 AM
Andries
You donÆt need to listen to what other people claim to be their intuition. You only need to listen to your own. When someone tells you something, then you see if it feels right for YOU. Otherwise ignore it. We have to learn to distinguish the difference between our ego and body needs such as sugar/ chemicals/cookies! -and that deep inner feeling we have about things. That is our spiritual message we get in the moment that shows us the path. What feels right for us.
I think intuition is always present, but we arenÆt tuned in or listing to it. We often donÆt trust that we got it right. What needs to be developed is our trust of it. We can do this by everytime we do sense it, to tell ourselves. Then we start to see just how often this occurs. That includes recognising all those times we had an intuitive feeling about something way back, but went ahead with it anyway û a romance, job, partner, business arrangement, joining a group, etc. and it all went very wrong. That also helps us to trust it more next time. Slowly we learn to trust ourselves and get rid of ideas we have built up that we canÆt know these things.
You say nothing warned you of æsbÆ and in the same parag. talk of being a ædoubting thomasÆ. I think you have said it all! Think again about the inner gut feeling (doubt) you had before you allowed yourself to be swayed by feeling so much love around. No, we donÆt expect that in the presence of evil ûbut that is our æmindÆ thinking again!
A Sparrow
I think you have hit the nail on the head. We need to be detached to allow out intuition to remain correct and pure truth. If we secretly want the answer to be a certain way, we easily change this. We need to really want to know the truth and not want it to be the way we hope it will be. It is a matter of keeping our lower self out of the equation. We need to surrender to that place inside us that resides in a higher place of knowing û even if rationally we donÆt really understand the why of our intuition at the time. I donÆt believe we need to know the why û only that it is.
Before æsbÆ astral traveled into your dreams, I think you would have already made some energy link by agreeing that he was OK in some way. He usually only calls on people who have linked to him û even slightly. They usually donÆt realise they have linked at all. The link can made as simply as making some statement about him or even a nod in agreement to a devotee talking about him, agreeing that he seems to be doing a good job or something like that. It would have been back then that your intuition would have been telling you something û allowing you to feel some doubt, etc. Maybe later also.
Questor 218
06-09-2001 01:15 AM
Siva or Sai shoot or whatever your name is; thanks for your concern as to my fund of knowledge about ssb. I am going to agree with Tony here; it is a non-resident charismatic cult. And if you read Hari's exposition of the structure of ssb's hierarchy, he explains it perfectly.
Thanks Hari. I had been looking in the wrong section for it. It is the most fascinating article on Keenan's site, IMHO. It is the essential proof of the cult structure of the ssb organization.
A Sparrow 217
06-09-2001 01:11 AM
One more thought: it seems that for intuition to be accurate, one would have to be completely objective and detatched about whatever the matter was that the intuition was concerned with. If there's any desire or preference for one side or the other of the issue to be the correct one, intuition won't work.
Has anyone ever noticed that people can be very intuitive about those whom they barely know, but not at all about their own families or loved ones?
A Sparrow 216
06-08-2001 09:25 PM
Hari, just curious; I was reading back over the essays you wrote for Keenan's site and in one you stated that members of the "inner coterie" know that raju is a fraud. Do you think that Kasturi knew? Was he so smitten that he couldn't see the truth and he was just being exploited by r for his writing ability, or was there something in it for him to play along with the lie?
A Sparrow 215
06-08-2001 07:09 PM
Terrie, I agree that it is very difficult to tell the difference between intuition, wishful thinking, emotions, and prejudice.
Why did I start believing in raju? More than anything else, because he frequently appeared in my dreams. Some of the dreams seemed wonderful at the time. He would be friendly or affectionate toward me, and of course that's what I wanted. Sometimes he would be talking to me, but I couldn't remember what he had said after I awakened, so I was sure it was very helpful spiritual advice which I was storing it in my subconscious and it would come burbling up when the time was right. I also had horrible dreams where he looked monstrous or was trying to stab me (of course I reasoned that he was merely killing my ego). So where would intuition fit in here? Was my intuition telling me that he was a fabulous being, or that he was a malefic murderer?
I compare it to a situation where someone falls madly in love with someone else and can't see any of their faults, even though their friends may warn them to be more circumspect. Several years later, the object of their adoration turns out to be a scoundrel, and the heartbroken lover wails, "Why didn't I see this?" and "Why didn't I see that?" They had mistaken their infatuation for their intuition telling them that Mr. or Ms. Right had been gifted to them by God after many lifetimes of waiting.
I also think that a better word for the "Love" we experience at PN is Shakti. Raju is the master of Shakti and it pours out of his devotees to him. He, in turn, pours it back. The place is thick with it.
Would you believe that one of Charles Manson's female followers said that she felt an incredible amount of Love when she was killing people? Do you think that that was genuine Love? No; it was Shakti; pure energy being released from her victims.
*******
Dr. Siva ...
I have to go along with you that on the local level the centers are not cult-like, at least speaking for the one I attended for 9 years. It probably varies from center to center, but I do think that the higher up you go in the org, the more cult-like it becomes.
Tony O'Clery 214
06-08-2001 07:02 PM
sb's org is a cult a not very subtle cult. Hey Sam how many people do you talk to that have left. You used to email me and talk on the phone, not now for I am ostracised anathema. There is a subtle pressure to toe the line. How about the thought police coming up on saturdays to the vancouver centre, to make sure people on the' drop' in weren't talking of non sb things.
It is there you can't see it Sam, for you are brainwashed and need it, like the others. After all who is going to leave 'God', or do something 'God', doesn't want. As sb says if they miss out it is just their fate...and there you have the pressure..Typical non resident cult!!!!.....Tony.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 213
06-08-2001 06:13 PM
From; SAISHOOT
This message is for Questor;
Your understanding of Sai organisation and the study circle are incorrect. There is no control of any one in any Sai organsation. There may be some local politckimg on personal level which is human tendncy. Sai organisation is not a cult. It recognises and respects your freedom. Please check your facts before speaking or else give some specific examples .
Hari Sampath 212
06-08-2001 05:14 PM
Hi Questor, Antony and all,
I checked again with Keenan's site and the essays about the SB organization are still intact.
Please click "myths and facts, and famous miracles" on the left, and you would find all the essays.
As I said before, I would be happy to answer any questions privately by e-mail, to anyone who asks them. If there is any additional material that needs to be posted, I shall do so, if a number of people have the same questions.
Right now, due to several developments in the US govt law enforcement agencies, the FBI etc, on the SB matters, I am completely occupied with that.
As can be clearly seen from the letters from US authorities , and my letters, many of which I had posted on this board, the matters are getting serious.
As I had already posted them publicly, for various reasons, I wouldn't mind if these letters are reproduced elsewhere too.
If authenticity of these letters from the US authorities is necessary, I would be happy to forward it to some people whom I know , who then can vouch for their authenticity.
This is because I cannot give out the e-mails of these officials in public.
The messages I am referring to are messages # 135, 144 and 145.
Thank you , all, for the continued efforts to expose the fraud of Sai Baba.
Hari Sampath.
Terrie 211
06-08-2001 04:52 PM
You are right, Andries. What so often passes for intuition is often our own desires influenced by prejudice and ego. I hope you get a good response to your question about the intuition dilemma. Sparrow, do you have any words of wisdom for us??
I firmly believe that we are guided correctly, but that somehow we often don't recognize that guidance. We look elsewhere instead.
Love,
Terrie
Terrie 210
06-08-2001 04:40 PM
Edited by author 06-08-2001 04:45 PM
Hi Andries,
Your thoughts about intuition are SO important, and I agree: So many of us thought we were using our intuition when we became devotees. What went wrong? And how can we trust our own intuition now? I've thought about this a lot. I think the key is in our emotional response.
You talk about experiencing "intense love" during your early visit to the ashram. I experienced an intense feeling when I read my first book by a ssb devotee. (SB and the Psychiatrist)
O.K., analyzing that feeling: intense, emotional...but calm?! No, it was not a calm feeling. It was an intense feeling. There's the key, I think.
When we feel very calm and peaceful and quiet (not "high" or emotional), that is when our positive intuition is working. If we feel excited, restless, or "un-calm," that's a warning sign.
On one visit to the ashram, ssb gave me an intense gaze of "love." I was delighted. But for many days afterward I felt restless and excited. I couldn't meditate or feel calm.
When I first became a devotee, I had lots of conflicts regarding my loyalty to Yogananda's line of Gurus. I should have paid more attention to those conflicts. Also, another Yogananda devotee I know who was becoming a ssb devotee had a vision of Yogananda standing in front of her and looking very sad.
When we're at ssb's ashram, it must be very difficult for our personal intuition to function where the oveshadowing aura of ssb is everywhere, accompanied by the devotion of thousands of devotees. We're absorbing that devotion. Although personally in two visits out of three, I felt nothing at all...only hot and uncomfortable!
Maybe we all had our own guidance in various forms, but didn't recognize it because that guidance was overshadowed by the "intense love" we thought we felt. Now I think that "intense love," was a psychic jab at our chakras, like a shot of electrictity. But not really divine love. That psychic jab is in the pictures and books also.
Love,
Terrie
Tony O'Clery 209
06-08-2001 04:19 PM
Saint Paul uses the word Anti-Christ in Thessalonians 2; Where he goes into detail about false miracles and even going into the temple of God, claiming to be God. This is supposed to come. I don't think sb is THE anti-Christ for he is too small potatoes, but he fits the bill of an anti Christ albeit a small one. Unless sb recovers and takes on a world scene, for now most have never heard of him, he is an irrelevancy.
Hari Sampath 208
06-08-2001 03:23 PM
Questor and Anthony,
Thank you very much.
That information is available on Keenan's site, and anybody can use it.
If it is okay by the moderator of this board, Anthony, then I can post them here in parts, but I think providing a link too should equally work.
Antony can simply cut and paste those essays on Keenan's site, in whatever length he thinks fit for this board. Or, Questor, you too could do that.
If any clarifications are necessary from me, or additional info is needed, please contact me privately.
Thanks,
Hari Sampath.
Andries 207
06-08-2001 02:46 PM
Dear Anthony and all,
Thanks for your quick response and THANKS FOR PROVIDING A MODERATED FORUM FOR THOUGHT EXCHANGE.
I believe too there is something as purified inuition that will help us in life but I have become extremely wary of my own intuition and that of others. I have heard so many people say 'This is my inner voice' or simply 'I know' and I don't agree with them. It is all distorted by people's ego, emotions and prejudices. A bit like Ram Das Awle's inner voice and intuition. Well sometimes I made a joke of it to SSB devotees and told them that my inner voice told me that I should eat more cookies. But really to follow my very first intuition in the case of SSB would mean that I would become a devotee again.
As I said before to you in the case of SSB there was no such thing as my intuition that warned me that SSB was wrong. On the contrary. I have never experienced such intense love as in the ashram although at that time although I was a doubting Thomas. Many people had this experience. Even never-devotees. Does anyone expect this to happen in the presence of an evil being?
So my question to all of you is how to develop my intuition? Please tell me because I want it NOW. I am willing to sacrifice a lot to get it. Imho before I have developed my intuition I have no other choice than relying on other people's testimonies and opinions and do a lot of rational thinking and tedious investigations. And even then I will make wrong choices sometimes. This is just the way life is. I don't like it either.
Btw SSB learnt me a prayer that I find very beautiful and useful in this regards. It goes something like "Lord please make my mind pure and holy. Make it free from prejudice and passions."
Thanks in advance and kind regards Andries.
Anthony 206
06-08-2001 02:03 PM
Lets forget the bible, forget the word anti-christ, forget who says who is what and whether someone thinks Maitreya is or isn't evil, or whether 'sb' is or isn't evil !!!!!!!
It is all words and other people's opinions and that includes our opinions on this board about 'sb'.
If we try and 'think' our way through life as to what is true, we get nowhere fast and cause ourselves masses of confusion and upset in the process.
We can't just 'read and believe.' There is tons of conflicting data around. If we keep on being naive and believing everything, we go around in circles until we learn to work with spirit and not our heads. We are never going to sort out truth by our thought processes!
Ultimately, I think we need to get ourselves into a place where we know for ourselves what is true and what isn't. We need to get in touch with our inner self that clearly tells us such things all the time. It is called intuition and we all have it, whether we realize it or not. It is THE way to go. I think we are all a lot cleverer than we give ourselves credit for. I think we do know about these things, usually right in the beginning when we first come across it - but we don't have enough faith in ourselves to trust what we know. Anyway, just what I think.
My definition of an anti-christ is, I guess, just 'someone with the power to achieve their goal of leading people away from the Light in opposition to the goal of God.' But it is just a word that can be used to shorten the description.
Andries
Humour is always acceptable here. It is a salvation for all of us to bring fun to our life.
205
06-08-2001 01:06 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-12-2001 05:27 PM
Andries 204
06-08-2001 12:48 PM
Hello Marswalker and all,
Had a short look at Kathleen Keating's http://www.finalwarningthebook.com/ and found her very scary. She sounds like someone who thinks that everything outside her religion comes from satan. That's what I call sectarianism! Far worse than Ram Das Awle.
And all this anti-Christ and doom's day talk is imho just a psychological trick to make people fear the future and to make them cling to their only true religion that says that there is only way to God and that's their way. This is an aspect of Christianity that I think is dangerous nonsense and very repulsive.
Personally if had to choose between the prohet Benjamin Creme and Kathleen Keating I would choose the first. Well I haven't read Sean Morton' article yet but I didn't get a bad impression of B. Creme of what I had heard earlier and by the quotes in your post 159.
Btw I am hoping for more response on my question in post 196 about the predicament of the ex-devotee.
Thanks in advance.
Kind regards, Andries
MarsWalker108 203
06-08-2001 11:42 AM
Re: http:www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com/index2.html
The purpose of the post is a sequel to indiacate Ram Das Axle is not credible concerning his references on his second website(above). In post 159, I pointed out the incredulous reference made by Ram Das Awle to Benjamin Creme and his touted avatar and savior, Maitreya. (Ram Das Awle is not the same Ram Das mentioned in Tal Brooke's book.)
On Monday night, March 5th, 2001, Kathleen Keeting, doomsday prophet and author of the book "The Final Warning," was the guest on the five hour show Coast To Coast AM-the most popular radio show in America with over 500 affiliate stations. She really caused a stir and controversy when she said her website(www.finalwarningthe book.com) named the anti-christ(Maitreya) according to 500 visionaries. Art Bell, the host, would not allow Keeting to give the name of the anti-christ on air. Kathleen Keeting definitely names Matreya(Turban Head) as the Anti-Christ on her site, whereas Benjamin Creme touts Tuban Head as the savior or Christ(www.shareintl.org).
Con we trust Ram Das Awles quotes and references on his website??!! How could he tout Maitreya as "A Modern Day Master?" as indicated on his site???
Concerning the matter, if anyone would like me to e-mail them a ccopy of Sean Morton's article entitled "Dark Prophet" written in his newletter(Delphi Associates Newsletter www.delphiassociates.org), please e-mail me at marswalker108@hotmail.com. This article may answer the question "Is Maitreya the Anti-Christ?
Love, MarsWalker108
Andries 202
06-08-2001 11:19 AM
Dear all,
Here are some religious jokes that I personally liked very much. Hope Anthony doesn't consider it off topic.
Some of the links don't work anymore.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/1723/humor.html
Kind regards, Andries
Anthony 201
06-08-2001 05:36 AM
Questor
I think its important for Hari to post the material too. It is great stuff. But he posted it in stges on the original yahoo board and I think this is a good idea. People get turned off by repeated long messages.
Re karma being abused. Many things are abused on this planet, inlcuding the threat of karma, but ultimately it is an individualÆs choice to follow or not, to believe or not, to hand power away or not. It is tough and we feel compassion for all who suffer from this choice of learning. But in a way, I guess most of us choose similar issues over governments, ecological abuse of the planet, genetic experiments and so on.
A Sparrow
Too right. I thought most of the things that æsbÆ says, have been said before. I havenÆt seen anything new, but then again there is not much too new around. It has all been said before by wise ones through the ages.
I agree that occult power can be attained by either æsideÆ.
Andries
Perhaps its hard to say whether it is right or wrong to tell devotees you donÆt personally know. It might be a shock to them, but I wonder if the end justifies the means? I think if I were connected to such an evil character, while ever I may experience lots of unpleasant emotions hearing that news, I think, in the long run, I would thank whover let me know. I would rather free my soul. I may never have seen a newspaper.
Andries 200
06-08-2001 04:27 AM
Hello Questor,
Hari Sampath's messages are somewhere in the URL hereunder. I think one of the earlier messages. Try e.g. 356
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabadiscussionclub
I requested a search function in this club but it is probably difficult to accomplish this.
Kind regards, Andries.
Questor 199
06-07-2001 10:02 PM
Anthony, Hi,
I think it is really important for Hari to post that whole treatise on how the sai organization works. I think people should know. Many of us have read it and need to refresh our memories. I am personally working to learn more and help get some people out. I and a friend have made very gentle efforts and have found that there are people who are questioning the the group and ssb.
If you have any communication with Hari, please let him know. I think his comments are very important. I truly wish him luck.
And about Karma, I know what your saying is how it should be observed in the correct manner but I also know how the concept of Karma is abused. People thinking that they need to deny themselves because ssb told them not to get married, or to break up their relationships, or that they were destined to be miserable, except in devotion to him. I believe this is the abusive aspect of this cult. As Terrie, I think mentioned, there are people who would commit suicide for this man. It is criminal. People who are vulnerable and troubled are made to think that only in service to this criminal will they find meaningful lives. So they invest lifetimes in this type of activity only to find out that they have been duped. Or they continue to be duped indefinitely. I have met some of these people. I am sure you have too.
A Sparrow 198
06-07-2001 03:25 PM
Andries ... I don't agree that a person who has occult powers will instantly lose them because of committing a sin, even if Ramakrishna said it. Many of the great ones (eg Yogananda) have said that having occult powers is NOT neccessarily a sign of being a highly evolved spiritual master. I've read lots of books about shamanism and that sort of thing and powerful shamans can be good, bad, or indifferent, just like ordinary people.
About the quotes: many sayings attributed to raju by his devotees came from other people. Ghandi said "My life is my message" long before raju. There's a fairly long saying by Confucius that I can't get hold of right now, but it goes something like this: "As goes the individual, so goes the family; as goes the family, so goes the community; as goes the community, so goes the nation; as goes the nation, so goes the world". I know those words aren't exactly right, but it's very close to that. I have read books where raju was quoted as saying the same words. Perhaps he didn't mean to take credit for other people's sayings; he just tossed them out w/o mentioning the original author as we might say some corny maxim like "A stitch in time saves nine" w/o crediting Ben Franklin with originating it. Who knows. But it seems that because of his fame and the number of people he reaches, he should be more careful.
Andries 197
06-07-2001 02:22 PM
Ramakrishna, Kasturi and SSB
In the autobiography of the late Kasturi "Loving God" one can read that this prominent devotee and biographer of SSB was an ardent devotee of Sri Ramakrishna and his main disciple Sri Vivekananda before he came to SSB. Ramakrishna said that a person who commits a sin loses his occult powers i.e. he will not be able to do miracles anymore. This can be read in the book by M. (Mahendranath Gupta) about Ramakrishna but not in the abridged version. In other words only one miracle would suffice for Kasturi to get convinced of SSB's divinity. And that is how Kasturi became a devotee of SSB because he believed in SSB's miracles. Or may be he didn't just believe but he really experienced a miracle. Who knows?
In the book 'Miracles Are My Visiting Cards' by E. Haraldsson one can read in the chapter 'The Abandoned Brother' the story of M. Krishna who was an intimate devotee of SSB until 1957. Krishna said that Kasturi who was a very learned man had a good influence on SSB. According to Krishna Kasturi educated SSB and Krishna said that SSB's discourses were mostly borrowed thoughts from Kasturi. Personally I have read some books about Ramakrishna (M.'s book) and some by Vivekenanda and found a strking similarity between Ramakrishna/Vivekananda and SSB's teachings. I can confirm the remark in one of the books by devotee Fanibunda that sometimes the words of SSB and Vivekananda are literally the same. One can read e.g. Vivekananda's 'Vedanta Voice of Freedom' to find literally the same sentences but I don't know the chapter or page nr. anymore. According to Fanibunda the literal similarity is because SSB was the Supreme Absolute who also inspired Vivekananda. But in the light of the above there can be a more down to earth explanation.
May be this is nothing new or may be it helps to solve the puzzle.
Kind regards, Andries
Andries 196
06-07-2001 07:08 AM
Dear Anthony and all,
Regarding Ram Das Awle's website a clear view on sex I still think this is an important subject. It was sent to me twice by devotees. What shocked me when I first read this website was the statement that people who turned against SSB and didn't leave quietely were committing 'karmic suicide' iow they would have extremely bad karma because of this. I thought and still think that this statement shows intimidation and sectarianism of the worst kind. I hope I would never have agreed with this while still being a devotee.
But now I'm beginning to see the reverse side of the medal. It can be indeed emotionally traumatizing to hear about the allegations for devotees. It's like telling devout Christians that a new scripture has been found in which it is said that Jesus was a sexual pervert and a criminal. For me being in this situation first as an ardent devotee and now as an ex-devotee with still devotee-friends is like a nightmare come true. Imho if I pushed the allegations upon devotees without taking into consideration that they they would be very painful and without trying to give emotional support then yes, it will cause some bad karma for me. So in this respect Ram Das may have a point.
My question to all of you is how ex-devotees and non-devotees should deal with this predicament? Personally I don't agree with sending unrequested letters to devotees who are strangers to the sender. Ex-devotees who were not related to the victims and whom I didn't know send me an unrequested letter. Some of the ex-devotees regret this. Some don't. They somehow found my address. Well imho the end doesn't justify the means. Not even in this case. I think it's okay though to inform the press and other religious institutions and to start a lawsuit. I think a phonecall by an ex-devotee who was a friend would have been acceptable to me.
Hope to hear from you.
Kind regards, Andries.
Anthony 195
06-07-2001 02:54 AM
I think we can probably leave all the Ram Dass stuff now. Is anyone interested in it, I wonder?
Hari - Questor has a good point. Your words are of value. Perhaps post it in sections like you did earlier on, so people can read shorter messages in between.
Hi Questor
Putting my two cents worth in here.
If past lives exist, it doesn't work to say 'well, that was then and I am here so it has nothing to do with me now. It doesn't work like that, unfortunately. What we do is what we do - whever we do it. We don't make it disappear by thinking that' time' and 'having a different name' makes a difference.
The reason for the extra numbers of people is that lots of planets are inhabited and we all move around. It happens to be a good time on Earth (believe it or not) and so more souls are here. Fun, eh!
The reason it can help to know about our past lives (although not necessary) is that many of the afflictions and problems we have now may stem from earlier incarnations.
You said........You think you were born with an evil history, so what motivation have you to do better in this life?
All the motivation in the world actually.
You said..........I think in fact that Karma gives people the right to do whatever they want because "Karma made me".
There is no such thing as karma made me. That is not how it all works at all. Karma is a rebalancing of negative and positive energies that we draw to ourself.
Karma and past lives has nothing to do with religion, although it is is brought into religions.
You said ............I'll be dead and my past life or future life will be alive.
No, you won't be dead. You will simply have a new coat. A minor change really.
Questor 194
06-07-2001 12:39 AM
Hi again Terrie. I was worried about George there for a bit. Didn't recognize him. Thought I was in a psychogenic fugue.
Andries; Please don't take my comment about religious people to mean *all* religious people. I mean a lot of pseudo types go through the motions and are more concerned with impressing people.
I actually admire those who have found real truth and peace through religion. I just don't see it as an answer for myself. I believe that there may be a higher power, but feel this power is a kindly force, and wishes us all to be happy and enjoy being alive. Why else would he put us here to talk on this board??
Warm wishes, Q
Terrie 193
06-07-2001 12:36 AM
Edited by author 06-07-2001 12:38 AM
Chris Parnell, moderator of the Yahoo ssb support site (UnityinDiversity) has asked me to post the following message from Ram Dass Awle. ----------------------------------------
Ram Dass has unsubscribed from all computer fora and has walked away from computers. He unsubscribed from all forums he joined. Here is his message:
Dear friends at XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX
I have just been to see Devi Amma, one of Baba's God-Realized devotees, and when I shared with her my feelings about doing all this arguing back and forth on the internet, she suggested that having introduced the website, my work in the group is now finished, and that to continue to discuss and argue about the issue will only rob me of my mental peace. I agree with her, and feel her words are actually Baba's guidance.
The website speaks for itself.
I feel it's best if I now bid you all a loving adieu and return to my sadhana full time.
I'm closing the saiwebsite108@yahoo.com address. This will be my last posting to the group.
Best wishes to you all,
in His love,
Ram Das
Questor 192
06-07-2001 12:31 AM
Hi Andries: Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I am not a believer in any particular doctrine. I don't deny that past lives might exist, but I don't think it does us any good to be ruled or dominated by them. You can't change them anyway. I have thought about this phenomenon, and cannot seem to understand how a few million lives in the world in 1000 AD could produce 6 billion past lives in this millenium. You just can't do the math properly. That's not to say that it doesn't happen. If I did have a past life, I don't know if I would want to know about it.
As for karma, it could be a self fulfilling prophecy. You think you were born with an evil history, so what motivation have you to do better in this life? I have seen children who come from the worst environment who believe that in the here and now they are bad and unworthy. Do they have to go and find an evil past life to justify their existences? What if they do? What if they don't ? It's just one more thing to confuse me. I don't need it. I wish people would just be nice to each other, and people would have a conscience. I think in fact that Karma gives people the right to do whatever they want because "Karma made me".
The most religious people are those who need religion so badly because they are so afraid they're going to do something wrong, they have to keep reminding themselves.
I think you should be good for the sake of your being good. What's the use of being good so you can move to a better past life. I'll be dead and my past life or future life will be alive. Why worry? Better do our best in this life.
Terrie 191
06-07-2001 12:30 AM
Questor, I used George's mailbox. The message was from me! (My good computer is in the shop, and this computer has trouble with the Internet.)
Love,
Terrie
Questor 190
06-07-2001 12:19 AM
Hey George: I don't know who you are. Did we speak about anything last year? I don't remember you at all. Perhaps you went by a different name? Care to tell us?
Questor 189
06-07-2001 12:16 AM
THIS MESSAGE FOR HARI SAMPATH;
Hi Hari: I don't know if you remember me, from the old discussions last summer. I am a great supporter of your efforts. I am wondering why your wonderful exposition regarding the bureacracy and hierarchy of the sai organization has been removed from Keenan's site. It should be of vital interest to people who are studying how this organization has gotten so much power and how it controls its "victims', aka devotees. There is so much lying going on there, and I have personally witnessed how the study circles are conducted to not allow any discussion. It's all dictation. No questions answered no matter how many are asked.
Dear Hari, please do post your exposition regarding the sai hierarchy again somewhere. Could you post it here? Why did Keenan remove it?
Warmest regards, and best of luck to you!
A Sparrow 188
06-07-2001 12:08 AM
Oh, C&B, don't you realize he's taken on the diabetes of a devotee so that the devotee doesn't have to suffer. Ha, ha!
A Sparrow 187
06-06-2001 09:45 PM
C&B ... How is it known that raju has diabetes? I'm not saying I doubt that he does; I just wonder where the info comes from. Not unusual for a man of his age, and I've read that there's a high rate of that condition in India.
***
About reincarnation: the thing that convinced me (tho it's not proof) was my discovery that astrology really works. I have been studying that subject for over 30 years, and it's one of my major interests. It seemed to me that there has to be a reason that a person would be born under a certain planetary configuration and that it couldn't just be arbitrary.
***
Re the AntiChrist: it would seem that the "antiChrist" is a state of being or spiritual condition rather than an individual; so many people (Hitler, Stalin Jim Jones, etc) could manifest the AC at different times, just as the human being Jesus of Nazareth manifested the Christ state of being.
Cock & Bull 186
06-06-2001 06:30 PM
A.B.Vajpayee's doctor's refused to operate in Raju's hospital for the knee operation.If Raju cannot persuade his star attraction to his hospital,the lesser said about the spatiality hospital the better.
Anyways Raju has diabetes and is undergoing treatment,how come his supposed miracle cure does not work on himself is another peela by his devotees.
MarsWalker108 185
06-06-2001 03:41 PM
Dear Lucideye,
This is synchronicity. I notice that you were curious about my phone number and it is is important that I communicate with you. Please send an e-mail to me at marswalker108@hotmail.com
Sincerely, MarsWalker108
MarsWalker108 184
06-06-2001 03:34 PM
Hi Sparrow,
To answer your question, Paramahansa Yogananda entered mahasamadhi(a master's or great yogi's final exit from the body) at a banquet at the Biltmore Hotel, Los Angeles, in honor of Binary R Sen, India's ambassador. Evidence indiacates he knew the day, the hour, even the moment of his exit. He passed during his brief speech after the banquet held the night of March 7th, 1952. His last words were of the poem:
Where Ganges, woods, Himalayan caves and men dream God,
I am Hallowed, my body touched that sod!
The word "God" became a long-drawn sigh...etc...
One of many examples tht Yogananda knew the moment of his passing is from the book by Sri Daya Mata, "Finding The Joy Within You," SRF 1990, P 240:
"Late that evening, he called me to him and said, "Come, let us take a walk." The ashram is a large three-story building. As we walked down the third floor hall, he passed in front of a picture of his guru, Swami Sri Yukteswarji. He gazed at that picture for a long time--eyes unblinking. And then very quietly he turned to me and said, "Do you realize that it is just a matter of hours and I will be gone from this earth?" "........
Love, MarsWalker108
Andries 183
06-06-2001 03:24 PM
Hi Questor,
After re-reading and re-thinking your posting I have to admit that there is a lot of truth in when you say that believe in reincarnation and God may be relatively unimportant when compared with living with good intent and love. However it has been my experience that thinking intensely about God with love removes a lot of negative thoughts like e.g. jealousy and anger. It worked well so often for me.
Kind regards, Andries
Terrie 182
06-06-2001 02:22 PM
Edited by author 06-06-2001 02:27 PM
Sorry, I left out the first line of Marswalker's post (Message 180). His post to Ram Dass Awle regarding Yogananda's statement about avatars was in response to an article posted on:
http://www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com/
Anthony 181
06-06-2001 01:42 PM
Not much good me getting into it. I am the greatest believer in past lifes ever! I can recall just about the whole lot in great detail. However, I don't suppise it is relevant to anything much. As Questor says 'to live with good intent' is the way to go.
It is true that the term anti-christ relates to a religion that uses the term Christ. However, I used it for this board in a more symbolic way and didn't really mean to get into a specific religion. I personally could be described more as believing that there is one source, no matter what name each religion gives it. In relation to anti-christ, I believe the goals of 'sb' are to lead people AWAY from the Light and SOURCE/creation/God - whatever that may mean to each of us.
Terrie 180
06-06-2001 01:38 PM
This is a re-post of MARSWALKER's message on YOGANANDA'S words about God incarnating in human form. This is being reposted at Marswalker's request, and replaces an earlier post which contained a few minor errors (spelling, etc.)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Ram Das and All,
I joined this club because although an ex-devotee after being devoted to Sai Baba for 27 years, the search for truth does not end. My sincere intention is to keep an open mind and not be so egotistical that change in me is impossible.
I feel many issues on your "aclearview" websites need to be addressed, especially your claim that Paramahansa Yogananda said: "God Himself has incarnated on Earth today, in South India. His name is Sai Baba. When I leave you are going to live with Him." You then indicate that the devotee spent the rest of her life at Sai Baba's ashram.
Ram Das, I have known at least 4 of Yogananda's close disciples for many many years. One rode in the same car with SSB and even slept in the same room with SSB in 1964. (He says the allegations are true although he did not have sex with SSB.)
I would have knowledge of any early American devotee that went to live at SSB's ashram. The woman I think you are referring to did not go to live at the ashram until decades later. (Yogananda passed March 7th, 1952.) If you e-mail me at marswalker108@hotmail.com, I will discuss with you her name, etc. In my opinion, Your statement on this matter is not at all credible.
Furthermore, please note the following contradiction concerning Yogananda's statement about avatars. He made it his business to recognize and visit saints! I refer you to the translation and commentary by Paramahansa Yogananda, "God Talks With Arjuna: The Bhagavad Gita, SRF 1995, pp. 439-440. Note, he finished this commentary in about 1951, shortly before his Mahasamadhi in 1952.
BEGINNING OF QUOTE
"The question is: Can God Himself ever incarnate as a human being? To say that God can not do a certain thing is to limit Him. But there are so many things that God can do, yet does not do--at least not as human beings expect of Him.
"God HAS NEVER been known to have taken a human form called "God" and dwelt in it among men. ("Why callest thou me God? There is none good but one, that is, God," Jesus said, (Matthew 19:17) to distinguish himself, an avatar, from God the Father, the Absolute, the Formless.)
The Lord has condescended many times, however, to manifest Himself through the incarnation of a fully liberated being who, once an ordinary human being, has become a true reflection or "son of God." God who is almighty and can do anything, thus operates His Omniscience through the human body of a avatar.
Just as the ocean of Cosmic Consciousness is aware of a soul wave manifesting on its surface, so the soul wave of an avatar is aware of the ocean of Cosmic Consciousness manifesting through its form. Great prophets and minor saints differ only in degree--the former manefest God fully throuogh wide-open windows of their consciousness; the latter mnifest God though small crevices of certain divine realizations.
It can be said the full manifestaation of divinity in an avatar is greater than is the partial manifestation in a saint who has not yet attained absolute liberation...."
END OF YOGANANDA'S QUOTE
(Paragraph breaks added for clear reading.)
Sincerely,
Dennis
Andries 179
06-06-2001 10:37 AM
Hello Questor,
How can you be so sure that nobody can be sure that there is such a thing as reincarnation and God? Some people claim to have memories of reincarnation i.e. they can describe or draw maps of the place they have lived in their previous life and compare them with the actual situation or compare them with the maps of the place. For them reincarnation is a fact. People who have those experiences come from all religions. I read last week the book 'Yesterday's childeren' by Jenny Cockell from England that I found convincing intellectually and emotionally. She grew up as a Christian.
And other people claim to have had personal experience with God. So they are sure too. Personally I don't have past life memories at all. But I know people who have without hypnosis. God answered my prayers sometimes in a way that can not be coincidence. A miracle? Yes, I think. Even last night something special happened instanteneously when somebody prayed for me loudly. Many people have experiences like me or even an altered stated of consciousness by intense sadhana.
To find the truth I think it's better to seek, investigate and if necessary talk with the people personally who have those memories and experiences. Or try to get those experiences yourself.
How would you interpret the memories and experiences of other people?
Kind regards, Andries
Questor 178
06-06-2001 08:10 AM
Hi again;
I am glad to be able to post on a board where there is some moderation and a moderator. I think you all need to be aware that many of these groups, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Wicca, Church Universal and Triumphant, Satya Sai Baba,the Moonies, have taken many of their practices and beliefs from other sources, a number of ancient eastern and western religions, and have appropriated them for what they are presenting as some kind of "new" and *improved* religion. They are all a new mix of old religions. No one knows if we really have had past lives. Proof is not possible, though many will attest to past lives as fact. The truth is that though there may be a God, and I hope there is, no one knows for sure. I don't claim to know which of these religions is better or worse. I know some are repressive and unhealthy, and some are more benign.
It is enough to say that people need to live this life with some kind of higher goal, moral beliefs, and love one another. God, wherever he is, can never fault one for that. And I think that's all he wants of us. I bet he's up there laughing at all the to-do down here.
SAISHOOT 177
06-06-2001 01:40 AM
Who is an anti Christ? The one who destroys or functions against Christ's teachings/work...Nero was an anti Christ. Just b/c SB does miracles or teaches alike, He is no anti christ. Anti christ is an invention by the church. SB is the Cosmic Christ, the Father who sent Jesus..you and me.
See you soon.
Anthony 176
06-06-2001 01:08 AM
Re the devotees. I would say that generally speaking, most devotees of ANY guru are all loving, helpful decent people. We all have the same goals and attain our learning in different ways.
Gurus have presented great benefit through the ages and their past words of wisdom stil benefit many.
Whether the same benefit of a guru still applies in this day is questionable I feel. I think we have a time upon us now that requires the individual to seek his own divine power as a part of God. Perhaps the role of the guru now is more one of teaching us to retain our own power and trust in our own divine capabilities - rather than teaching us other wisdom.
For people who feel they have never followed a guru, just think of all those lifetimes you have had. I think we will have all followed a guru at some time or another.
Terrie 175
06-05-2001 10:08 PM
Andries, you're right. Most devotees I've kown have been ready and willing to help in service projects, and the centers I belonged to always had organized projects to help others. So many ssb devotees are really good hearted.
George 174
06-05-2001 10:05 PM
Hi Questor!! Good to see you back. I'm posting from a friend's computer. I hope you stay around and join in the discussions.
Terrie
A Sparrow 173
06-05-2001 06:38 PM
Thank you Terrie and Marswalker!
Andries, you are right. Our center also had several service projects going; feeding homeless people and giving birthday parties for residents of Alzheimer's facilities were the main ones. The devotees who took part in those projects were sincere, but were unwittingly helping to polish up raju's reputation.
Terrie 172
06-05-2001 04:58 PM
David, I'm so happy that you had the courage to post your experience with sai baba. There is a great need for boys and young men to come forward with the truth about their sexual experiences with sb. It is such a shattering experience to have the person you thought was God incarnate reveal himself as worse than a human being.
It is completely traumatizing, and there have been suicides over the conflict in these young men. But it isn't their fault. It's part of the darkness that surrounds the so-called avatar.
It's important for victims to speak out because those who still believe that sb is a God who can do no wrong are now finger pointing and saying, "See, I told you so! There are no new victms coming forward with their stories. There were just a few liars who wanted to destroy swami's reputation."
I am in contact with those who are trying to set up a new expose' site. If you are willing to share your story, perhaps in greater detail than you've done on this site, please post a note saying so here or e-mail me at terrie109@yahoo.com. I think that e-mail address will work. If not, please let me know on this board. (I'm not sure of the exact address syntex for Yahoo. Can someone help?)
Sorry All that I've been off-line most of the time. I'm still waiting for the return of my Internet computer!
Love,
Terrie
Terrie 171
06-05-2001 04:43 PM
Edited by author 06-05-2001 04:45 PM
Here is a copy of my response which appeared on the Yahoo Unity in Diversity site re: Yogananda's "death bed" quote.
On the site sai-baba-and-sex-aclearview, Paramahansa Yogananda has been badly and falsely MISQUOTED. The author of that site gives no reference for the quote other than "a woman," who is not identified in any way. Here is what Yogananda really said before his death: (Sri Daya Mata, the current president of SRF, Yogananda's organization,is speaking.)
BEGINNING OF QUOTE: Late that evening, he (Yogananda) called me to him and said, "Come, let us take a walk."...And then very quietly he turned to me and said: "Do you realize that it is just a matter of hours and I will be gone from this earth?"
Tears flooded my eyes. Intuitively, I knew that what he said was to come to pass. A short time earlier, when he spoke to me of leaving his body, I had cried to him, "Master, you are the diamond in the ring of our hearts, and of your society. How can we carry on without you?"
With such sweet love and compassion, his eyes like soft pools of divine bliss, he answered:
"When I am gone, ONLY LOVE CAN TAKE MY PLACE. Be so drunk with the love of God that you will know nothing but God; and give that love to all." END OF QUOTE (Finding the Joy Within You by Sri Daya Mata, SRF 1990, page 254-255.)
This, dear ssb devotees and ex-devotees, is what Yogananda REALLY said. You will see that the alleged quote given in aclearview doesn't even sound like Yogananda's way of speaking. It is, I believe, a complete fiction--Which leaves open to question if the other alleged quotes of spiritual teachers on aclearview site are also fiction.
Love,
Terrie
Andries 170
06-05-2001 04:25 PM
Edited by author 06-05-2001 04:27 PM
Dear all,
I found a mistake in the following URL that disturbed me very much. http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/sai.htm
In this website one can read.
" In the West, on the other hand, there are no activities or initiatives of public interest promoted by Sai Baba, in spite of the "universality" of his mission. "
I know for a fact that this not true. In Amsterdam there has been for many years every Saturday a soup kitchen for homeless people. It was initiated, organized and financed by a SSB centre. Many people who volunteered had full time jobs during the week. It had to stop because the center had to move and on the new place it was not allowed anymore by the city council. Then the seva activities by the centre did not stop but were changed and continued in a home for handicapped people. I know all this because I participated too in all those seva activities.
Please, please don't doubt the sincerity of the devotees and don't belittle their selfless effort and sacrifice. I have rarely seen it in society. It differs somewhat per centre though. It is a great, great tragedy that the devotees have a guru who has dark hidden sides.
Kind regards, Andries
169
06-05-2001 03:42 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-06-2001 01:46 PM
Anthony 168
06-05-2001 01:20 PM
Hi Questor. A warm WELCOME to you.
There is a possibility of a new board to link us on. We will wait and see. Keenan's is still there but no links.
We are keeping this board ..... polite,loving, offering the best help we can to those genuinely seeking the truth and free from useless long dissertations by the sai organisation.
A Sparrow 167
06-05-2001 09:41 AM
Hi, Questor! Good to have you here!
Questor 166
06-05-2001 08:36 AM
Hi to old friends and new;
Thanks for this new board, Anthony. How are things going? The other board has deteriorated.
Read David's post. Good wishes on your recovery. This is a horrible experience for any person.
I am disappointed that more anti sai work is not being done on the east coast.
-Questor (remember me?)
Andries 165
06-05-2001 07:16 AM
Dear David,
Just wanted to tell you that was very shocked to read your story. You're in my prayers.
Andries 164
06-05-2001 06:55 AM
A new book by Phyllis Krystal 'Sai Baba, the Ultimate Sexperience'
Making jokes is my way of coping and processing.
FalseName1 163
06-05-2001 06:02 AM
Questions asked by a friend to Benjamin Creme.
A good friend of mine send a letter to Benjamin Creme with the following questions about SSB. Sometimes these letters are answered in the 'Share Magazine' . Does anyone know whether these questions have already appeared in this magazine?
1. Why did SSB touch me in a way that can be interpreted as sexually intended?
2. SSB gave me a ring and told me that the stones were diamonds. And when I had them tested in a jewellery shop they turned out to be made of glass. Why did SSB do this?
Btw I heard that Benjamin had heart problems. So that may be the reason that those questions were never answered.
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