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This document contains posts 1521-1591 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.

Questor 1591

08-17-2001 08:21 AM ET (US)

Anthony, thanks for your explanation of your belief in astrals, etc. Not sure why Terrie has to respond for you. Perhaps to help you because you are so busy. Anyway, thanks Terrie.

Andries, thanks for posting so many interesting and useful links. It is also important to evaluate who provides the link, and the information, and judge from whence they come. Leadership U is an interesting site.

Peace; is that your name? I guess you guessed wrong about my leanings. As a matter of fact, I have had telepathic experiences, and other unusual experiences myself, and it is easy to take these experiences and to find a belief system that neatly organizes them for us. Unfortunately that's where things start to get uncomfortable for me.

Suresh, I like your posts; though you seem to be a faithful person, you have developed a sense of independence about it, and answer only to God. In this way we are very similar, though I am not a Hindu. I also appreciated your post about Hinduism being one of the most broadly expressed religions. That was always my impression.

By the way, I am a female questor(ess).

Kyra, love your posts, and your name reminded me of a girlhood penpal I had called Kyra, from Belleville, Illinois. It would be funny if you were that 14 year old girl,years later, but in this huge country, quite unlikely. I couldn't help asking...

Have a great day, everyone! It's back to the old grind!

Felicitations!

Questor

Andries 1590

08-17-2001 03:45 AM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-17-2001 04:52 AM

Dear All,

I found this interesting.

"The Betrayal Scenario - When a betrayal is taking place in your environment, part of you shuts down to process the dishonesty. As a result of closing down in denial, your ability to love and trust is diminished. Betrayal takes away your innocence, that part of you that trusts life. ...."

Mrs Nori Muster experienced more or less the same in ISKCON/Hare Krishna.

http://www.surrealist.org/norimuster/cultsurvivor.html

This may be interesting too.

http://www.surrealist.org/links/bibliography.html

Kind regards, Andries

Anthony 1589

08-17-2001 12:43 AM ET (US)

Serverlog 1586

Probably untrue - but honestly, we don't care who is doing the posting if they make such valid points.

Anthony 1588

08-17-2001 12:41 AM ET (US)

Repeating the notice about the new board.

To everyone

Please note: This board will be changing over in one week, on Sunday, August 19th 2001 - to a new Quick Topic board of the SAME TITLE. It is necessary to start a new board for administrative puposes.

This will be the new url for the message board as from August 19th. http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6

Please make a note of it NOW.

This current board will continue to be shown for some time with the last post showing the new message board url. However, there will be no posts accepted on it from August 19th.

All the previous posts from this board up to August 19th will be posted for viewing purposes up on the website

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/discussion.htm

Hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone.

The changeover should go smoothly.

Anthony 1587

08-17-2001 12:39 AM ET (US)

Re the board topic.

Can we please keep to the topic. May I suggest that we are careful not to be led into answering questions that have no relevance to the topic. If you feel it is important, keep it very short please.

Sunrise

Your board is so well sectioned and with interesting headings, I am sure it is easy to cope with.

Suresh

You are correct in that pink represents a loving energy and so it could well be that homosexuals would have a lot of pink in their aura. However, this also applies to everyone, of either sex, that has a loving approach to life. The amount of pink in the aura would technically be representative of the amount of love one feels. And it is pink and not red. In sb's case and possibly other gurus even, as I have mentioned before, it may be that any pink seen in his aura (and we aren't sure if there is) may well be the love of the people who love him - seeing they are in such large numbers and actively direct their love toward him - instead of Source.

Siva

Further to your comment about me having no religion. That is untrue. My religion is devotion to the one Source/Creator. It is a religion of having no seperation from anyone and believing all to be divine and equal. I have not accepted the beliefs of most structured religions that 'this person is OK because they follow the same religion as me, but this other one is not so good, because they aren't of my faith.'

New Day 1583

So sorry, the site you have encouraged people to go to has nothing to do with the expose of sb and does not contain material to this effect - and we do not intend to lead ex devotees, who we feel may be in a vulnerable position, to any other religion or cult, no matter its beliefs. What people find themselves is up to them.

Balaraman Suresh 1584

08-16-2001 09:45 PM ET (US)

Peace

It's in billions only,and to Quote the Famous Carl Sagan Astrophycisist :"The age of the universe is somewhere around 12 billion-years-old. The Hindu tradition has a day and night of Brahma in his range, somewhere in the region of 8.4 billion years."

Dr. Sagan said, "As far as I know, India is the only ancient religious tradition on the Earth which talks about the right time scale. In the West, people have the sense that what is natural is for the universe to be a few thousand years old, and that it is billions of years is mind-reeling, and no one can understand it. The Hindu concept is very clear. Here is a great world culture which has always talked about billions of years."

As for the Pink Aura,it's scientifically been proved that Homo-Sexual's have an affinity toward's Pink Color,and Parthi Baba's Aura according to the Doctor is Pink Aura in color.

Balaraman Suresh 1582

08-16-2001 08:28 PM ET (US)

I still suspect,that,there is a WOMAN behind Parthi Baba for him to have attracted all these follower's and once he started his Un-natural tendencies towards Male Devotees,he is beginning to get exposed.

In religious matters, Hindus have elevated women to the level of divinity.One of the things most misconstrued about India and Hinduism is that it's a male-dominated society and religion.It is not.

It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -- ``shakthi'' means "power'' and ``strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine. The Trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) are all powerless without their female counterparts(Saraswathy,Lakshmi,Parvathy).

Therefore i am more inclined to think,that Parthi Baba has some "WOMAN" secretly tucked away(For whatever reason?).Of course this is my opinion only,i have no proof to validate it.

Peace 1581

08-16-2001 06:55 PM ET (US)

Suresh from what I have read the cosmic cycles in Hindu cosmology run in the billions of years not millions.

About auras, your deduction that pink auras 'prove' homosexuality betray your complete ignorance on this important subject.

Sunrise 1580

08-16-2001 06:14 PM ET (US)

A big thank you to Hari and Afshin for fixing the sathyasaivictims counter. We like to track visitors to various sites, hoping there will be more and more ex-devotees. Thanks for helping out.

Balaraman Suresh 1579

08-16-2001 06:07 PM ET (US)

I personally feel Parthi Baba should proclaim himself to be a Social Worker not pro-claim an avatar of Baba from Shirdi.

As for the aura being pink,i certainly tend to believe that as color pink is usually associated with the fairer sex,and parthi Baba is 'gay' beyond any reasonable doubt and with this Pink color aura association ,it furhter conclusively proves Parthi Baba to be a Homo-Sexual.

Nothing wrong in Parthi Baba being an Homo-Sexual per se,but then he should have consenting adult partner's for his LEELA'S,instead of luring Un-suspecting Male devotee's who go to him for an entirely different purpose.And importantly Parthi Baba acknowledgeing he need's to have SEX like all other Godmen/Godwomen in INDIA and Worldover.

Anthony Thomas 1578

08-16-2001 05:44 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-16-2001 05:45 PM

Sunrise

I finally had some time to look at the latest material on your site. What an incredible site and what a lot of work you have been doing. Thank you so much. It is all there.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/index.htm

Anthony Thomas 1577

08-16-2001 05:15 PM ET (US)

Suresh re 1569

"........You have to free yourself by your own effort. No savior can help you achieve God realization without your personal effort.

You have made a very good point.

Kyra.

I have been lax in forgetting to welcome you with all my heart to this board. Thank you for all your insight.

Siva re post 1574

Qualifications to see auras - you must be joking!

My qualifications? I may have more than you! Though why anyone would want to display them on a message board, I can't imagine!! Oh yes, the ego thing, I forgot! from those who place imnportance on bits of paper.

Anthony Thomas 1575

08-16-2001 03:36 PM ET (US)

Suresh

No, I didn't think you would be using the symbol. You are wiser than that. I just hoped no-one else was.

Re 1572 You make some really good points and I thank you for all your contributions. There is some really interesting information in your post about Hinduism. However, I say to you, as I would say to anyone regarding this board, if we can please keep comments relevant to the topic. So, although the cycles are interesting, we really need to keep to the subject related to sb.

I see the definition of moksha is transcending the birth/death cycle. I understand now.

Andries re 1573 'I find it difficult to refute SSB's theology'. It isn't his!

Said and Afshin

I just wanted to thank you again for all the very hard work you have put in to bringing about the exposure of this child molester who thinks he is above the law.

Dr. Sabapathy Siva 1574

08-16-2001 03:04 PM ET (US)

AURA OF SB-A QUOTE REPLY TO ANTHONY;

Ref; 'THE AURA OF SELFLESS LOVE'- From the book,'GOLDEN AGE-1980'. Dr.Frank G.Baranowski.

This reply is meant more to the visitors of this web site who needs to decide as to who needs the expose..SB or such critics as Anthony.. Dr.FGB is a clinical hypnotist and psychologist who has extensive experience in reading and interpreting auras of some great people. After having met and studied SB he writes the following;

" I've had the pleasure of meeting such personalities as ex-President Gerald Ford, Queen Juliana of Netherlands, and Pope John Paul and I've studied their auras as well as tens of thousands of others. I say this not as a testimonial but as a fact; not one person I've ever seen has an aura to compare to the size and colour of Sathya Sai Baba.

The colour pink which is rarely seen, typifies a person capable of selfless love. This was the colour that SSB had around him. The aura around SSB went beyond the building against which he stood; this energy field reached thirty to forty feet in all directions. Never having seen any aura like this before, my first reaction was to look for fluorescent lights which may have been shining on him. But as I watched, the beautiful pink energy pattern moved as he moved. There was no doubt, this was his aura." (End of quote)

Anthony, would you please post your credentials of being an aura expert.? As read before..your credentials are in relation to be the monitor of SB critical page are..

.you haven't been a SB devotee, haven't seen him

..you don't believe in any religion

To the readers of this board there...

Anthony

Suresh Re 1572

No, I didn't think you would be using the symbol. You are wiser than that. I just hoped no-one else was.

You make some really good points and I thank you for all your contributions. There is some really interesting information in your post about Hinduism. However, I say to you, as I would say to anyone regarding this board, if we can please keep comments relevant to the topic. So, although the cycles are interesting, we really need to keep to the subject related to sb.

I see the definition of moksha is transcending the birth/death cycle. I understand now.

Said and Afshin

I just wanted to thank you again for all the very hard work you have put in to bringing about the exposure of this child molester who thinks he is above the law.

Andries 1573

08-16-2001 01:32 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-16-2001 01:33 PM

Re:1566

Anthony and All,

I agree about your point that SSB is inconsistent in his advice to investigate the guru and at the same time giving the advice not to read 'negative' statements about SSB.

But apart from that I find it difficult to refute SSB's theology even when compared to refuting some main stream religions.

I guess it's the old story about the message and the messenger. Kind regards Andries K.D.

Balaraman Suresh 1572

08-16-2001 11:36 AM ET (US)

Dear Anthony

No, i don't use the symbol given by Parthi Baba in my Reiki Healing's.In fact when i was initiated into Reiki by my Guru, the Aura which constantly came

to me was the color Purple and when i used to visit Parthi Baba and have his Darshan,the Aura that i could Visualise on his body was the color Black.

While i was a Parthi Baba devotee,i used to defend and say Black Is Beauty And Beauty Is Truth (Sathya),what an explanation, those were the day's my friend...

Balaraman Suresh 1571

08-16-2001 11:24 AM ET (US)

Dear Anthony

You are welcome to call me Suresh,as this is my name.Its only coming to USA i learnt about First Name and Last Name,manner of culture.Balaraman is my (Late)father's name and the community that i belong to,traditionally keep the father's name or the initial of father's name in the beginning followed by the individual's name.

For example in other community,say, Sathya Narayana Raju : Here Raju is the name of a particular community or clan

Sathya Narayanan is the actual name of the individual

But there is no mention of Pedda Venkappa Raju, so each community has it's own set's of rules.Now Parthi Baba went and changed his name and rest you know is History....

Anthony Thomas 1570

08-16-2001 11:23 AM ET (US)

Hi Andries re 1566

In case anyone decides the definition of a cult (post 1566) can be used as a rule in making decisions to determine a 'cult', I would just like to say I don't feel the mechanisms he quotes apply to all cults. Scientology, for example has to be the exact opposite to 'ambiguity, definitional reversals, and deliberate imprecision. ' While ever I am NOT advocating Scientology in any way, it uses the most precise definitions imaginable. Words from its own vocabulary are not only incredibly precisely defined and never altered, but every person in that cult has to demonstate that they clearly understand all the terms used.

In relation to the 'unstable theology infinitely malleable' - the thing that comes to my mind is sb. On one hand he tells devotees to love others and then he warns ashram people they will be banished from his graces forever if they listen to the expose stories. He also implies he can do whatever he likes because he is God and people shouldn't expect to understand the reasons for it, because God works in mysterious ways.

Aura Re 1565

Your questions are valid. If it was a wild goose chase, I wouldn't be answering. Even if you were an avid devotee trying to get a foothold of trust on this board, it would make no difference. At long as the question and answer will serve the purpose of the board, I am very happy it is asked.

Balaraman Suresh 1569

08-16-2001 11:11 AM ET (US)

Dear Terrie

Regarding your query to Moksham,we could relate it with TIME. The transcendence of time is the aim of every Indian spiritual tradition. Time is often presented as an eternal wheel that binds the soul to a mortal existence of ignorance and suffering. "Release" from time's fateful wheel is termed moksha, and an advanced ascetic may be called kala-attita (' he who has transcended time').

Hindus believe that the universe is without a beginning (anadi= beginning-less) or an end (ananta = end-less). Rather the universe is projected in cycles.

Actual Definition :

Moksha means freedom from the cycle of birth and death. The ultimate goal of Hindu religious life is to attain freedom from the cycle of birth and death, or union with God. This union is achieved through true knowledge (jnana), devotion (bhakti), or right work (karma). Purity, self-control, truthfulness, non-violence, and compassion toward all forms of life are the necessary prerequisites for any spiritual path in Hinduism. There is no concept of Savior. You have to free yourself by your own effort. No savior can help you achieve God realization without your personal effort.

Balaraman Suresh 1567

08-16-2001 10:52 AM ET (US)

In my opinion, as to why Parthi Baba failed to capture my Bhakthi is due to the fact, in the manner spiritual experience is reduced to mundane acts and much too controversial happenings.

When religion becomes organized, man ceases to be free. For it is not God that is worshipped but the group or the authority that claims to speak in his name. Thus, it becomes a kind of social idolatry.Religion is an experience. To think that any human being or institution has the monopoly of God's truth is to commit the sin of pride.

More so being a Hindu and follower of Hinduism,which incidently in my opinion,is a religion of freedom. It allows the widest freedom in matters of faith and worship. It allows absolute freedom to the human reason and heart with regard to questions such as the nature of God, soul, creation, form of worship, and goal of life. It does not force anybody to accept particular dogmas or forms of worship.

Parthi Baba,somehow with his Un-natural liking's to Male devotees and indulging in physical contact's in-approprately,just does not bring the picture of an AVATAR.

Hi Andries re 1566

Aura. Re 1565

Andries 1566

08-16-2001 08:22 AM ET (US)

The Scent of a Cult

Benjamin Wittes wrote

"The quickest way to detect a cult is to sniff for doublethink. The cult seeks control over its membership not by providing a coherent theological system but by providing the opposite: an unstable theology infinitely malleable to the needs of the cult's top echelon and uninterruptible at all times to anyone below that level. Specifically, the cult destabilizes its theology by controlling its religious language through ambiguity, definitional reversals, and deliberate imprecision. What ultimately separates religions from cults is not that cults seek to control the minds of adherents but that they employ Orwellian doublethink to do so and use of the cover of language to effect the far more outrageous means of control set forth by CAN."

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9501/opinion/wittes.html

Frankly imo I found more doublethink in some mainstream religions than in the SSB movement. What do other (ex-)devotees think?

Thanks in advance.

aura 1565

08-16-2001 07:43 AM ET (US)

Thanks Anthony for your explanation of auras and energy from your point of view. I was dumbfounded when I read your account of it and it appears objective to me, especially since you say that you were never a devotee of sai baba. Yet you were able to guage his energies at a non-physical level.It is easier to trust someone like you who has had no affiliation with any religious organizations and no axe to grind. What you said about meeting sai baba at an astral level is very fascinating. It is amazing how one can so easily give ones good energies away to another and empower him/her with special powers to do as he/she pleases.

I am sorry if I have brought up a topic which may seem controvertial or which would keep one going on a wild goose chase. But I am trying to figure out things in the light of what is being said now and what I have all along believed in or been led to believe.

Hope you won't mind if I bring up any further questions in the future. I do not wish to lead you away from any other serious discussion pertaining to sai baba.Thanks.

Anthony Thomas 1564

08-16-2001 04:30 AM ET (US)

Thanks Terrie, (1562) I was just about to say that exact thing. Hi Questor. Each of us can only express our view of things as we perceive it. Mine is based on my own experiences - rather than from reading or as part of any specific religion. I actually have no specific religious background, having always felt that there is just one Source/Creator and many paths that lead to this - so we have all the different religions and philosophies. So, to me, religion is a wisdom of the divine nature of the universe.

I would hope that the people reading our posts here understand that we are are all different people of different nationaities, beliefs and life experiences, and that they have a responsibility to themselves to only accept anything they feel sits right with them.

Although some people are not familiar with auras and energy stuff, many people do have an understanding of such subtle energy and so will find some discussion about that to be of benefit in looking at the possibility of sb's influence from an energy point of view. And as we see, some devotees do have querries regarding such things.

Questor I don't believe that karma is the only explanation for the fate of humankind either.

I think as well as the learning we get from the balancing of energies (karma), we choose other experiences and learnings as well. I also think we can make a choice to go through some experiences to help others. Didn't Jesus do this? I think Princess Diana did this with her death.

RE your mention of

'schools of thought that believe that one should not help the poor and downtrodden because it is their karma to suffer. '

I have heard this view from some people also. Our path of evolution is about more and more understanding as we go along and higher and higher pictures make things clearer. I think that such a view is just a part of that path and that eventually comes an understanding that spiritual compassion has nothing to do with whether or not someone has created their circumstances. We can each love and support, be caring tolerant and understanding for all people that are suffering in any way. And of course, also for those who are not.

Although I personally believe it is true that we are responsible for what happens to us, the perpetrater of the act is equally responsible. So looking at the 'sb' issue - if it feels

right to expose or stop someone, then you do that. Just because someone may have attracted being mugged, doesn't mean you automatically let the mugger go. The key is to do what your inner spirit directs. If it feels right, you do it. If you see an

injustice and you are called to handle it, you do so. To me, that is faith and trust that I will be directed to do what is truly right and will best serve divine purpose. That it would then be right that the person/organisation, whatever, is brought to justice.

I don't think we are meant to get involved with everything just because it is an injustice. I think if we see an injustice and it feels right to walk away, we do that -

trusting that, in this instance, the divine purpose will best be served if you leave it

alone. It may be that someone else is meant to handle it or perhaps no-one is,

because it is serving a higher purpose by staying the way it is.

Suresh

Is it OK to just call you Suresh? Thank you for your wisdom and expression of it.

I think you are right - that everyone who takes human form in a 3rd dimensional world is bound by the universal law of Karma.

Re you mention of Reiki (post 1551) and a new Symbol introduced by sb. It is interesting you brought that up. A friend of mine who is into Reiki showed me the symbol, simply saying that is was a Reiki symbol - to see what I said. I reacted strongly! I won't say exactly what I said exactly!! But I said it was impossible that it was a Reiki symbol because it would immediately wreck the mathematics of Reiki energy. Then she told me where it had come from! For those people who keep asking me what 'codes' are all about, here is a prime example of coding. I am not surprised that Dr.Usui (who I guess is the Reiki originator? ) wasn't aware of this symbol. Thank heavens he wasn't - and I sure hope it hasn't been introduced into the Reiki energy.

Terrie 1563

08-16-2001 01:57 AM ET (US)

Ref #1555:

Some very wise words in this post from Suresh, stated simply and truthfully.

Terrie 1562

08-16-2001 01:54 AM ET (US)

Ref #1557:

I have yet to read and absorb the posts of the last two days, but I do have a comment for you Questor. You have asked once or twice about Anthony's BELIEFS. I thought he made it very clear in his writings that his knowledge of astral planes and some related matters is based on his EXPERIENCE, and not on belief.

Terrie 1561

08-16-2001 01:48 AM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-16-2001 01:51 AM

Ref #1554:

Suresh, you are to be congratulated on learning so quickly to use the computer and keyboard! Perhaps if my eyes were a bit younger, the long paragraphs wouldn't bother me. At any rate, there is no need for you to apologize. I truly enjoy your posts.

Sunrise 1560

08-16-2001 01:39 AM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-16-2001 01:41 AM

Running a day or two behind the Dutch site, Sunrise now has the report on the 2nd half of the Argentina TV program on the BREAKING NEWS page. Sunrise is also referencing Alexandra Nagel's two articles on the Dutch site from the "What's Really Going on with Sai Baba?" page under OUTER PLANE. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise

Andries 1559

08-16-2001 01:20 AM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-16-2001 01:21 AM

I'm confused about auras in general and SSB's aura in particular. I have never seen somebody's aura. A good non-devotee friend of mine met somebody who saw SSB's aureole just as J. Hislop. This person was not a devotee and of course couldn't believe his eyes.

I noticed that people who can see auras see the same things sometimes so personally I'm inclined to believe at least some of it.

Generally I don't agree with Questor that we have a choice to believe. Sometimes things are beyond reasonable doubt and then we don't have a choice. Of course I agree that we have a choice in putting importance to the theories of karma, God and auras and so forth in our daily life.

Peace 1558

08-15-2001 11:51 PM ET (US)

So Questor is a christian. I was under the impression he was against all religion.

Questor 1557

08-15-2001 11:41 PM ET (US)

Anthony, I am also concerned about your discussions about astral bodies and etherics and so forth. What are your sources, and where are your beliefs rooted? Those who do choose to believe in these things should know that it is a choice to believe, and not an absolute fact. It is important to know, too, how this believe in astrals, etc, differs from Hinduism, and Christianity.

I'd really like to understand where you are coming from. I must admit I am a rather diluted Christian, with perhaps more of the Ethical Culture type of views.

Thanks,

-Q

Questor 1556

08-15-2001 11:36 PM ET (US)

Hi again. I am reading these very fascinating and illuminating posts, and yet, something disturbs me. I have to take some time to contemplate what it is, and then I realize it: I don't believe that karma is the only explanation for the fate of humankind. I wonder if all the ex-devotees are still believers in karma, which is a very powerful belief espoused by ssb.

Karma has been abused as a concept in so many new age belief systems. There are even schools of thought that believe that one should not help the poor and downtrodden because it is their karma to suffer. It explains away all evil that befalls us or that we might perpetrate on others. It explains all tragedy, all illness. It is somewhat of a link to ssb. And many christians believed in ssb, but have returned to their old religions.

Moksha is something that I know for a fact, is what some believers strive for throughout their lives. They try to be "holier than thou" and actually will harm others in the name of what they believe to be moksha. I have even heard it said that if one dies prematurely, it will speed them on to moksha.

I know we have pursued this topic before, but I am still queasy in the fact that we are still espousing this and do not differentiate between ssb's karma and moksha and that of the classic Hindu faith.

It might be useful for westerners to know the difference. So much extremism has been propagated by ssb and other cults.

Balaraman Suresh 1555

08-15-2001 09:37 PM ET (US)

Why Parthi Baba Will Have To Yield To Laws Of Karma

According to Hinduism, the soul continues this journey with a heavy load of Karmas, (good or bad) until it exhausts all Karmas by undergoing pain or pleasure sensations in the body. Then the individual soul, will merge with the Absolute Soul or infinite power. This merging process is known as Salvation or Moksham.

God does not punish us. God created man near to perfection and has given him the free will to decide whatever he wants. There is no such thing as being cursed. Hindus believe even God is bound by the law of Karma once He takes human form. Lord Krishna was killed by a hunter. He was obeying the law of Karma, the unwritten law of the Universe.

Karma is a very just law, too, as it is equal in repayment. Karma, like gravity, treats everyone the same.

Therefore,even if the Indian Goverment dilly dallies about prosecuting Parthi Baba,but in the Highest Court Of G_D,Parthi Baba will be punished.

Balaraman Suresh 1554

08-15-2001 09:15 PM ET (US)

My Dear Terrie

I am so sorry,that i did not realise my postings were hard to read.It's only after coming to the USA,that i have ever sat in front of a computer,monitor,and using the key board.I have learnt and still continue to learn,as i feel there is so much out there to understand and learn.

In fact,i feel born again,after i let go Parthi Baba,from my belief system,and there is genuinely a sigh of relief ,and a renewed new breath of life in my existence.I appreciate your frankness and the liberty that you have taken.

Terrie 1553

08-15-2001 09:05 PM ET (US)

I've been away for a day and look at this fascinating conversation I have to catch up with!! Well, tonight maybe.

Suresh, your posts are usually very interesting and/or helpful. Could you help us out by putting a paragraph break after every four or five lines? It makes reading a lot easier. Thanks.

Andries 1552

08-15-2001 04:24 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-15-2001 04:27 PM

I'm very impressed by Alexandra's latest two articles that are already on http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/english.html Thanks also to the webmaster. She has done a big service to the public by her time-consuming and thorough research. And her consent to make her articles available online for free. Thanks

Balaraman Suresh 1551

08-15-2001 04:00 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-15-2001 04:10 PM

Regarding this Aura topic,when i first set my eye's on the photo of Parthi Baba,i was stunned. But when i see and continue to see other religious savant's,it brings out innate sense of well being and peace.While visiting Prashanthi Nilayam,Whitefield,Kodaikanal,Shivam,Sundaram-there used to be an artificiality which i could never pin-point,yet because of the vibration created by bhajan singing,you would automatically get transported to realm of unique happiness(Satsangh).The collective Aura of the people who gather around in the congregation's, channelise it to Parthi Baba,who by his Left Handed Yogic techniques captures them and drains the devotees.In fact,when i told my mother,that my belief in Parthi Baba got shattered and now i feel that a huge weight is off my chest and i am totally at peace within. Even the Reiki healings that i have done did not heal me to the extent now that Parthi Baba is out of my life.Talking about Reikei,Parthi Baba introduced to us a new Symbol,not known to even Dr.Usui,and called it ZONAR - an infinity symbol drawn horizontally with a straight line at the intersection of the the two circles. If you all notice,whenever any new topical agendas circulate,Parthi Baba in his style will add or subtract ideas,in order to show his super duper knowledge. Never for once has he taken the iniatitive,and disclose the source.

Regarding Moksha - When the ATMA of the individual JIVI (spirit soul) merges with the PARAMATMA (Super Soul) it's believed one has attained MOKSHAM.

Anthony Thomas 1550

08-15-2001 03:42 PM ET (US)

Good point Balaraman. Quite right, he can never escape karma and the laws of the unniverse.

Balaraman Suresh 1549

08-15-2001 03:31 PM ET (US)

Most Christians are familiar with Galatians 6:7, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also

reap." Less known is Proverbs 26:27, "Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein, and he that rolleth

a stone, it will return upon him." Both express the Hindu principle of karma (the sum and the

consequences of a person's actions during the successive phases of his existence), but since no

direct connection can be deduced, we'll merely consider it an interesting coincidence and move

on.

The reason why i quote this is because Parthi Baba has necessarily have to go thru this Karmic Law,and he is bound to pay for his Akramum done to the male devotees engaging them to Un-natural physical contact's,let alone the abuse done on spiritual level.

Anthony Thomas 1548

08-15-2001 02:55 PM ET (US)

That was interesting. I edited my last message because I noticed a missing punctuation mark. A messsage came up that said 'your message has already been emailed to 5 people so they won't see this change'.

I had no idea that 5 people were getting all the messages emailed to them. Life is full of surprises, isn't it?

Anthony Thomas 1547

08-15-2001 02:50 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-15-2001 02:52 PM

Sorry, my reference numbers were incorrect on my last posts. I meant to refer to 1541 and 1542. (not 1451 and 1452 - drunk again!!)

To aura 1546

Your questions are most welcome and serve the purpose of the board in assisting with areas that many devotees must wonder about.

I am unfamiliar with the term 'moksha'. From your reference, I guess it means some high state of enlightenment.

As you know, it is quite possible for someone who has 'passed over' to be helping sb do work in the astral plane. In fact, there will be lots of his devotees doing just that.

However, that is not your point, I know. Technically, I believe a person heading for the higher dimensions after body death, could stop and do work on the astral plane if they saw a worthwhile reason for doing it. Someone who is heading back to higher realms is obviously evolved sufficiently to control exactly how and when this occurs. Then they could continue on their way 'up' when they chose to.

Then there is the other possibility!! The person is not going anyplace 'higher' and is well and truly in the astral plane, which is where most of his devotes are. The reason for this is they are in his energy (their choice) and his goal is to maintain control of these souls. They can't be controlled from higher dimensions. Then they would be in the light and he's lost them.

My understanding is that we all reach a point where all our learning is finished that we can get in a physical body. Then theere is no longer a need or reason to be born again, but we still could be if we wanted to. That is one level. Then there is a level beyond that, where one cannot return to be born into a physical body. Then there are more levels beyond that.

My understanding is that there are many old souls here now who are completing their last physical incarnation.

Re your point of this person merging in and out with sb. This is very easy and very possible, as sb already has his vibration of energy merged with the vibration of his devotees - alive or 'dead'.

aura 1546

08-15-2001 01:55 PM ET (US)

Thanks for your reply, Anthony. I am trying hard to make sense of all this.What I am now learning about sai baba appears to be exactly the opposite of what I have believed in for a long, long time. I do have another question which has been intriguing me for sometime now. I read in Howard murphet's last book about how his late wife Iris, appears to a psychic friend of his and talks to Howard through her. Iris, from her plane(spiritual, whichever it is) tells Howard that she is helping sai baba carry on with his job on earth. The psychic also sees Iris's astral body merge with sai baba's and then separate. Now, a long time ago, in an interview, baba had told Iris that she would attain moksha after her last life and that she will not be born again.My question is this: If she is still in her astral form and wandering around in different planes helping sai in his earthly duties, then where does the question of moksha come in? Her astral form was clearly visible. I thought that those who have attained moksha do not go to the lower astral levels but reach the highest from where there is no return? Sorry for bothering you with these questions.

Anthony Thomas 1545

08-15-2001 10:05 AM ET (US)

Aura re 1451

It is a good point. Thank you for bringing it up and for wording it the way you have. This is how I see it. Please understand that it is only a view. Others may have much better ideas. I think people are normally sustained by the energy of the universe. There are many names for this, but let us call it Light energy. When people live their life within the natural flow and harmony of divine order, they are sustained all the time by that energy. That light energy is, of course, in abundant supply and totally unlimited. It just keeps pouring in as long as we are open to it.

I think most people cut in and out of their connection to this energy throughout the day, depending on whether choices the choices we make throughout the day are sourced from spirit - or whether they are made through our lower will, thoughts and ego. I think when we make decisions based on the lower will, (the ego part of us) we cut off that energy source to varying degrees. Then we feel tired and drained. The more we conduct our life through our lower will, I think the more we are cut off from that energy and so the more exhausted we feel. Thy Will, not 'my will' be done.

Firstly, what sb says is partially true. He does place his energy into the space of devotees. Both the ones that attend physically at the ashram and all the others around the world that make a link to him. He is definitely capable of doing this and there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that he does this very effectively. I base this on the fact that often upon meeting a total stranger and because I have felt the vibration of sb around them, I have asked if they are a devotee. It has always been the case that they were a devotee -and I refer to many dozens of people who had never met him personally.

However, he doesn't need to place much of his own (dark) energy in their space in order to make sure they stay connected to him. So he puts just enough for the control he needs. It is in his interests not to put too many blocks around his devotees. He needs them to keep flowing in Light energy so they can keep passing it to him. It doesn't matter to him that this means they will still stay somewhat connected to light, because they are well and truly HIS - under his wing, so to speak.

So a devotee would probably only be completely drained of energy if they are so totally devoted that they literally completely hand over their life to him. They would then cut off most of their natural supply of spiritual light energy. I believe this does happen, possibly more than we think. Most would still manage drag themselves along in life because his energy will be slightly sustaining to them plus any bits of light energy they get if they accidentally bypass his control and manage to make a true connection to God/All That Is. But ex-devotees would know more than I do whether they have observed this exhaustion in any devotees. Generally, I guess there are a lot of devotees that are tired or depressed, to different degrees, because after all 'he' is in their space and that alone will be depleting their life force to some degree.

I would just like to repeat that this is only my view of what is happening. It may not be correct. Also nothing is permanent. Once someone clears the energy of sb from their space and reconnects to SOURCE, the true Light - all is restored.

I believe there is always gain to be had from every single thing we do in our life. Connecting to a guru or holy figure could possibly teach us love, devotion, compassion and surrender. It may also eventually teach us that we do not need to hand responsibility over to other people for our own welfare.

Perhaps we end up discovering the divinity we seek is within us all. And may the journey and the wonderful discoveries along our path be ever-rewarding for us all.

Angelfire re 1452 The board is not for mud slinging from anyone, whatever their view of sb. I have never used the term 'rabble but I guess you are speaking of some inference to that. I also have never knowingly deleted any post that served a valid purpose and contained an issue, either for or against, that needs to be brought up, discussed and sorted out. If indeed you posted something that fits that criteria and it was deleted, I apologise. I might add that although I do not in any wish to negate full responsibility for this board, I do have to go away to work sometimes and the board has been administered by another person. However, they are also very careful and are totally trusted to do a good job. Mostly they use the name 'Deletions' when they delete something, whereas my deletions just show 'deleted by topic administrator.'

This board, as I have said many times, is for people (devotees or not) who have doubts that sb is not what he claims to be. It is not the appropriate board for people who are ardent devotees and have no doubts about him and are simply posting here to cause trouble. If you feel you are of the former view, please post your message again.

Messages 1544-1543 deleted by topic administrator 08-15-2001 01:13 PM Angelfire 1542

08-15-2001 07:31 AM ET (US)

Anthony

You infer I am part of a rabble, when what I did was point out to you what your high handed, autocratic behaviour was like, particularly in censoring some criticism of people in this group. At times you did appear to be thumbing your nose at all and sundry who did not play your tune. Your tune has a question mark on the title, seemingly inviting discussion and debate.

WE all have skeletons in the closet in some way or another, and we are all fallible in one or another way. It is unfortunate that there are people who cannot manage either their mouths or their minds. They exist on both sides of the Sai divide, and Neuralsurfer group is probably patent evidence of that. Sometimes each side throws mud. You have to be aware of that, it is not always vedantic, philosophical, ayurvedic or dialectical criticism of the meaning and content of what people say. Attacks ab-hominem will occur from time to time and when they descend to the gutter then you ought exercise non negotiable moderation. But moderation just because you have the power seems to be create a persil, sanitary environment where the real debate cannot occur. Just people agree with each other and say "I told you so". It does look like that.

aura 1541

08-15-2001 07:18 AM ET (US)

Anthony and others,

Thanks for your interpretation of auras about which I know very little and have seen nothing of. Another question I have with regard to this is that if the energies of those devoted to sai baba are being drawn away from them, then does this not lead to a depletion of the so-called "good" energies or vibrations of the devotees? What are the consequences of this continuous outpour of energy away from them towards him?

Then again, Sai Baba himself says something(contrary) to the effect that during darshan it is HIS energies that get transferred from him to his devotees; so they should be silent and take in this "divine energy" and not allow it to be dissipated. Herein the confusion as I see it.

Anthony Thomas 1540

08-15-2001 05:18 AM ET (US)

Hi Terrie,

I don't blame you for having difficulty with the idea of a beautiful aura in any way being cvonnected to such a being. So do I! That is because it is not truth. I find his own energy to be very dark ( the core energy). But it is so well disguised that it is probably only visible if viewed from a higher vibrational band. Most people seeing auras would be seeing only the lower band of what is referred to as the 4th dimension - the plane beyond the physical world. I should imagine then it could well be seen as filled with light. What is visible is the light of the devotees.

If he wasn't constantly receiving the light energy of devotees plus their permission for him to use their energy - which they give with free will (which makes it OK, from a spiritual law perspective) then I am sure that not only would his own field of energy be seen - but it would probably also be felt quite strongly by most people. People would stay away in their droves, as they sensed it. He knows that, of course. While ever I don't want to give him credit for anything - he is not stupid!

I recall it saying (is it in the Bible?) something to the effect of 'Do not expect Lucifer to appear as dark - expect to see the brightest shining light.

Anyway that is what I feel about it. It certainly doesn't mean I have gotten it right. We each have to see what is truth for us.

Reinier van der Sandt 1539

08-15-2001 03:36 AM ET (US)

Hi to you all,

Part II from News from Latin America is on our site now !

(Click on News above)

http://www.exbaba.com

Bye ! Reinier

Andries 1538

08-15-2001 03:27 AM ET (US)

High-Control or Cult Group Support Group

Event Details

Host: Colleen Russell, LMFT

Location: Mill Valley

City / State: CA

Telephone: 415.383.7721

Date: Saturday September 8, 2001

Time: 02:00 pm - 03:30 pm

Notes: For ex-members & family members of a high-control group or cult which included a focus on a living leader to whom you or members seemed to display unquestioning commitment. Questioning, doubt, and dissent were discouraged or even punished; the group continues to claim a special, exalted status for itself; the leader is considered a Messiah or Avatar; you are/were always wrong; the system, its leaders and its belief are/were always right. $35.00 per month.

Terrie 1537

08-15-2001 02:13 AM ET (US)

Ref #1534

Alexandra Nagel's articles are really excellent. She gives an outstanding overview of just about everything connected to the expose. These articles should be in paper published form. It will take some ink and paper, but many of us should print these articles and keep them close at hand for reference.

Terrie 1536

08-15-2001 01:27 AM ET (US)

I'm having trouble with the concept of sb having a huge and beautiful aura. Huge, maybe, but if sb is really a being of darkness, how can his aura be "beautiful?" Or filled with light? Someone on the boards once said her guidance told her that sb was "a dark brilliance."

Of course, I admit to knowing next to nothing about auras, meaning that I can't see them and only know something about the theory of colors and what they are supposed to mean.

Anthony, you must have seen something of sb's aura? How does the astral light of a a person compare to the physical aura?

A Sparrow 1535

08-14-2001 10:04 PM ET (US)

Re message# 1527: I agree with what Anthony said about sb's aura being the energy of his devotees that they give him. I also have a friend (now an ex-dev) who has seen his aura and says that it's huge and beautiful. I believe that he somehow gleans, harvests vampirizes ... or what have you ... The psychic energy of his devotees ... and that's how he gets his powers, his aura, and all that.

Kyra ... I'm SO glad that you're posting here now! I've loved reading your letters on the ssbdiscussionclub.

Reinier van der Sandt 1534

08-14-2001 09:34 PM ET (US)

Hi to you all !

Two important articles from Alexandra Nagel are now on:

http://www.exbaba.com

Greetings !

Reinier van der Sandt

Balaraman Suresh 1532

08-14-2001 05:17 PM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-14-2001 05:21 PM

While i was an ardent devotee of Parthi Baba,many of the devotees used to tell me that ISKCON is an CIA sponsored religious movement and it was only a front for the CIA operatives to move about in different countries with diplomatic immunity.Andries post about the expose in Iskcon was nice and i read recently somewhere in Texas a lawyer is defending the ex-devotees who were sexually abused in their gurukula's.In fact when i visited Mayapur in 1989,a young teenage boy boarding there told me ,how he hated being there and wanted to go back to Australia his home country,and gladly drank the Coke i bought for him from the canteen.Despite all the negative flak that iskcon is getting,they have really transformed Mayapur to a large extent just the way Parthi Baba has transformed puttaparthi with sundry industries springing up.Moreover parthi Baba has ensured even after he is long gone,his schools,colleges,hospitals will remain in the public eye,which in my opinion is making him get away from crimes like child molestation's,un-natural acts with male devotee's,murder's done by mob frenzy etc.

Terrie 1530

08-14-2001 03:13 PM ET (US)

Ref #1525:

Kyra, I'm so happy to see you here on QT! Here's a small gift for you from Barry Pittard. He sent this in an e-mail a day or two ago:

"What a believable account from Kyra Kitts. If you know who this person is, please let her know of my appreciation. The more accounts like this the better. Although indirect in regard to victimhood, they document the responses of devotees. As time goes by, the sheer weight of the denial process will become more than evident."

Barry Pittard

Barry's comments refer to Kyra's post below from QT (which I copied from the Yahoo board):

Message 2526

"...loveandjyothi, this seemingly deliberate obtuseness by people who should know better saddens me too. I ran into confronting it directly with no success as follows.

"Besides the fellow I mentioned who'd been sexually molested by sb and had his life ruined, I also knew directly of another handsome young man, a Chilean, who sb unsuccessfully tried to molest.

"Disgusted, I phoned, in turn, Joy Thomas (when she was still living in Southern California), Phyllis Krystal, and Wilma Bronkey. I was as polite and tactful as I knew how to be, asked each of these women if they were aware of the molestations, and if so, what they thought of the issue.

"Joy Thomas was a lovely person to speak with. It was clear that she believed from her heart that sb was innocent of any wrongdoing and gave me the old "he's your mirror" story. I couldn't take offense, though. She was sincere and kind, and only meant well.

"Phyllis Krystal was equally gracious. A truly classy lady. She said that she'd heard of the "rumors" but honestly didn't know what to make of them. I was left impressed with her gentility and truthfulness. From what I've read recently I nw gather that she did try to ask sb about the molestation issue, so I can only credit her.

"Wilma Bronkey, on the other hand, began yelling at me over the phone in fury. Pure devotee dogma and rage. I slipped into reactivity at that point and mentioned that she might consider removing her cranium from shadier climes, so to speak, and hung up on her.

"I called her back later to apologize for my language but that the issue of sb's sexual depravity was too serious to be ignored.

"I was answered with "I'm used to hearing from people like you and I've learned to ignore you all." Then she hung up on me. It left me wondering just how many people "you all" refered to...

"I tried calling Sam Sandweiss, and his wife very politely told me that he was in India.

"At that point I just let the issue drop and worked on my own content." (from Kyra Kitts)

Questor 1529

08-14-2001 02:38 PM ET (US)

Andries, I really liked that article about Iskcon.

Anthony, check your new QT site, as someone has spammed it. I saved the link yesterday, and clicked it after forgetting that you said it was up in a few days. -Q

Anthony Thomas 1528

08-14-2001 01:20 PM ET (US)

Peace re 1527

Well, that I certainly believe! It could not be any other way.

Peace 1527

08-14-2001 12:04 PM ET (US)

The renowned authority on auras, Dr Branowski (sp?) wrote that he had never seen such a huge aura before as the one of Sai Baba.

Anthony Thomas 1526

08-14-2001 11:26 AM ET (US)

Edited by author 08-14-2001 11:27 AM

To aura re your post 1523

Two points perhaps.

The first is being that one persons statement and interpretation of a possible aura picture would perhaps be insufficient grounds to decide, as fact, sb's main aura colour. Really good quality Kirlian photography is needed to accurately establish the colours (vibrations) of the subtle energy that surrounds the physical body. I've heard tests have sometimes shown quite different colours of the same person at the same time, using different cameras. Incidentally, auras are constantly changing.

Second point. Pink, as you say, is a colour perceived when love is present. Red is perceived if the energy is more of a sexual nature. It is possible that pink may be (or have been) present in sb's aura. My understanding of this would be the amount of etheric energy, total adoration and love that is projected to sb by his devotees, both in physical contact with him and through their mental thoughts from around the world could, technically, well and truly be sufficient to create an aura that would eminate a frequency (vibration) of love.

There are few people on the planet,I suspect, that have such an immense following of adoring subjects. The power given him by those devotees allows him various abilities through his use of their energy.

However, this is only my view. Perhaps others on the board have a different idea about this they would like to express.

Kyra Kitts 1525

08-14-2001 09:24 AM ET (US)

Be free from anger and hatred, beloved Godlover. The compassion is here for you, but you have to recognize it. Trust your inner Sai Baba, and not outer form.

With deep love, Kyra

aura 1523

08-14-2001 07:41 AM ET (US)

Anthony:

I read your account regarding sai baba's energy and "contamination of codes" etc. It was a completely new angle to view energy from and also fascinating. At least this was new to me. I do have a question which you or perhaps anyone else can answer. I read many years ago about a phtographer who studied baba's aura and said that it was nothing but pure love. I think in that book it mentioned the color pink representing pure love. My question is that if there was any negative energy would it not have shown up too? It is all very intriguing to me and rather confusing, especially in the light of all the controversy one reads about. Would appreciate a reply or explanation to this whole question of energy because devotees do believe in the 'PURE LOVE' energy that he emanates.

Anthony Thomas 1522

08-14-2001 02:31 AM ET (US)

How easy to see the people who have nothing worthwhile to say - it seems all they can manage to do is attack personalities or quote sb. Original thoughts - no, it seems not. Not from those people entrenched in his energy who have handed over their power of existence, their future, their fate and destiny.

What a shame it wasn't to God that you handed over such a precious gift as your own soul. Look who is gloating over your devotion now. He has fuzzy hair and calls himself god - and it seems that some people believed him! Life continues to be a learning, doesn't it, of who to believe and who not to!

These sort of posts (1518, 1519, 1520 and sarcastic post to Terrie re the light)neither serve our purpose getting out the real truth about sb (molester and fraud) or yours in showing that being connected to sb has made you loving, compassionate people.

It seems clear to people reading this board that being a part of the 'I believe in sb' clan, has turned you into something that even you can't be proud of.

Andries 1521

08-14-2001 01:49 AM

'Schaef explains that dishonesty is the result of perfectionism. The illusion that everything is perfect cannot be maintained unless questionable information is withheld. Thus, leaders in an addictive organization may become obsessed with denial and dishonesty, even in matters that are inconsequential, since they want everything to appear perfect.' >From Nori Muster's webpages about ISKCON/Hare Krishna

http://surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/addict3.html

Kind regards, Andries K.D.

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