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pageThis document contains posts 1320-1395 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
Balaraman Suresh 1395
08-06-2001 11:04 AM
Please read this article
http://167.216.192.98/infotainment/persona...ip/tantricsex.shtml and you will further be knowledgeable as to how Parti Baba's devotees have distorted the truth regarding Kundalini Yoga which is part of Tantric Ritual's.The best part is,it took the Indian couples to learn from a western devotee the art of Tantra in sex.
Balaraman Suresh 1393
08-06-2001 10:27 AM
http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/0406210h.htm Dear George,the above link links you to one of the foremost respectable newspapers of India,which clearly gives out without any ambiguity defeating to the claims made in this board as well as other boards like Yahoo by pro-Parti Baba devotee casting aspersion/slur on Tamils from India and Sri Lanka.
Balaraman Suresh 1391
08-06-2001 10:00 AM
Congressman Frank Pallone, India's staunchest ally in the Congress,should be sought after by the "American Victims Of Parti Baba".Unless Senator's are involved in a direct way,there will be little headway made to expose the mis-deeds and un-natural acts of Parti Baba,therefore i urge fellowmen/women,and contact the Indian caucasus senators without delay, to probe in the delay of the FBI investigations.
bhakthan 1389
08-06-2001 07:47 AM
Ref MSG 1388- The spoken words betray the deception of the speaker - mark the words used -" JEALOUSY" ,
"PROSPERITY" "WICKED TREND " -- and he says "DO NOT BE AFRAID AND FALL PREY "- A Self proclaimed avatar who claims all the powers of the universe after all is irked with other religious heads- who do not make any false claim to be God thmselves or avatars -Unlike him they try to tell their followers whatis best in their religion and scriptures and encourage their followers to follow thes precepts and discover their spirituality -thehighly revered among these gurus in India live a simple,open and unostentatious life.(Prosperity for them in thought and austerity in daytoday life)
Why should the " Avatar" worry about what they say if heis what he claims to be- Strangely he is advising his followers" NOT TO BE AFRAID"- ( of what ?).This is a very cunning way of ensuring that the innocent folks in his camp who have not yet surrendered their power of judgement do not start thinking about the words of wisdom of these religious heads and abandon him -that would deprive him of the "Prosperity" in which he wallows - actually he is afraid of losing his "Prosperity" !- Hindus who have not yet abandoned their Gurus ( those who are truly holy and who do not attempt cheap materialisation tricks or claim any Godhead) must stop and think carefully about the implications of this devious speech very aptly quoted by Mr.Suresh.
Balaraman Suresh 1388
08-06-2001 01:05 AM
Edited by author 08-06-2001 01:08 AM
Parti Baba in his discourses derides the men who wear ochre robes but he himself is still unable to patch up with Shirdi Baba devotees nor was he able to visit Shirdi Samadhi even during his recent Maharashtra trip.
"Even those who wear ochre robes are falling prey to this evil trend. One Swamiji becomes
jealous at the prosperity of some other Swamiji and instigates false propaganda
against him. " ....."Even some of the so-called sadhus are indulging in this wicked activity. One need not
talk about the role of Peetaadhipathis (heads of hindu sects) in this. We should not
criticise anybody, but I am forced to tell you all this, as the situation demands. Do not
be afraid of any false publicity. "
http://www.eaisai.com/baba/
Date: 25 December 2000
Occasion: Christmas Day
Place: Brindavan
Christmas Sandesh
Divine Discourse by Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba COUNTER JEALOUSY WITH LOVE
Read the link about just to give you all an idea,about the Ochre Robed Sanyasis selfless love at preserving Hindu Dharma....
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/about.html
Sunrise 1387
08-06-2001 12:39 AM
Edited by author 08-06-2001 12:47 AM
The Yahoo "Breaking News" link in Post #1385 has been put on the Sunrise breaking news page. There have apparently been threats to sb, and the police are asked to investigate ashram security.
Glen Meloy's letter to devotees has been moved to the "Hope-How Devotees Fill the Void" page.
Kyra's clairvoyant visions re: sb are now on the "Ex-Devotees Speak" page.
Her story is absolutely fascinating. It's been copied from several Yahoo Discussion board posts (August 2), and is now a story on one page on Sunrise. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Balaraman Suresh 1386
08-05-2001 11:37 PM
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5208/ Address at the parliament of religons in Chicago - Swami Vivekananda
Bliss 1385
08-05-2001 11:16 PM
Breaking news:
http://messages.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sath...=12173549&mid=17134
Terrie 1382
08-05-2001 09:05 PM
Sounds to me like earth movement, Suresh. There is so much chemical and air pollution in India, that nothing that fell from the sky would surprise me. I could hardly breathe in some of the cities and I would cough constantly if I didn't wear a filter mask.
Not that this has anything to do with the expose', but I bookmarked the news site. Thanks.
Terrie 1377
08-05-2001 08:00 PM
Edited by author 08-05-2001 08:01 PM
I've just read Krya's story on the Yahoo discussion club (accessed from sathyasaivictims). She brought up the really important subject of sb's abuse of women...abuse of a different kind, to be sure, but abuse all the same.
Sunrise copies posts off the boards for the site. I'd like to see Kyra's story archived on Sunrise and/or saivictims.
Thanks, Sparrow, for telling us to check Kyra's story. Her clairvoyance was "right on."
Balaraman Suresh 1374
08-05-2001 12:31 PM
Dear Anthony,Thanks for your sincere advice.I will try to live up it.
Anthony 1373
08-05-2001 06:07 AM
Hari
Of course, it is always OK to post things that will help 'sb' devotees become more aware of the truth concerning their guru. Your 'Inner workings of an ashram' is so helpful. I am all for giving any information that can help devotees make more informed choices about the type of person (energy) they are connected to and have handed their life over to.
I guess the reason some people are willing to hand their soul over to him is because it is easier to identify with a God you can see and have pictures of in your house, than with a concept of a God that cannot be seen. That requires more faith and trust.
I assume that devotees true intention is to connect to God. Because they believe him when he says he is God, they keep going to him whenever they call/pray to God. If only they would question this and think 'Well if he is God, it won't matter if my thoughts go directly to the Source of the Universe.' If they started to connect directly to the source/creator/God/All that is, they would start to free themselves from the energy of 'sb.' I say 'start' because when he is so entrenched in people's energy and life, he has a pretty strong hold on them!
Suresh
A suggestion for you. You mention Hari is being baited (1363) but you have baited sarf in your post of 1358. This encorages a response. May I suggest you leave this alone.
Hari Sampath 1372
08-05-2001 03:10 AM
To Sunrise :
I have no objection to the messages being posted together.Please use them.
If I may suggest, please post them together under some title that makes it very clear that the articles are about the Sai Baba MONEY .
Thank you,
Hari Sampath
Terrie 1371
08-05-2001 02:26 AM
Edited by author 08-05-2001 02:32 AM
#1347: Andries,
Terrific article on "Conversational Terrorism." I copied it for my files. I vote that we all complete the course before being allowed to post on discussion boards.
Suresh, love your sense of humor!! Thanks for reading up on Yogananda. I'm trying to get through "God Talks with Arjuna: The Bhagavad Gita." I think it will take the rest of my life. It's more than 1000 pages.
Lots of posts to read today, but no time until Monday probably....
Sunrise 1370
08-05-2001 02:07 AM
Hari, you have no objection to us posting "The Money Behind Sai Baba" on Sunrise? (What's Really Going on With Sai Baba? page)
Sunrise 1369
08-05-2001 01:54 AM
Edited by author 08-05-2001 01:59 AM
Ref #1368
The correct URL for the Tehelka site is: http://www.tehelka.com/currentaffairs/nov2000/ca112900baba1.htm
This article is linked from the Sunrise MEDIA page (if you don't want to bother remembering the URL), and probably also from saivictims.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
bhakthan 1368
08-05-2001 12:36 AM
Dear All
Posting Mr.HariSampath -MSG 1346-has for the first time hit the nail on the head with the expose of the underlying force-it is a a terrific combination of religion( and at times religion is the opium of the people) and money power that sustains the charade that goes on in name of a Sai movement .The common people in India struggling for day to day life are mere watchers while the politicians/bureacrauts who control leves of power are actual beneficiaries who find this combination usefulto them for their own ends-
Please also refer to the expose on this same issue by tehelka.com in Nov 2000.This agency in India caught worldwide attention recently when they exposed the Defence scandal in India which led to resignation of country's defence minister and arrest of top bureacrauts.Please go to; www.tehelka.com/cuurentaffairs/nov 2000 .
The innocent Sai devotees may find somthing worthwhile to ponderover and know what goes in name of spiritual search !
Sunrise 1367
08-04-2001 08:06 PM
Edited by author 08-04-2001 08:16 PM
Re: browser back buttons, Hari has explained it fairly well. Anthony asked a while back why he couldn't use the back button from Sunrise to return to this board. Often when one site is opened from another, the only way to get back is to CLOSE the site "on top" (such as Sunrise opened on top of this board), by clicking on the upper right hand X in Windows.
But you can simply type or paste another URL in the Address window if you want to.
Hari Sampath 1366
08-04-2001 07:49 PM
To steelmouse , ref 1362 :
Again, let me explain patiently to you.
1. From any other site, when you open the link for our site, what happens ?
You may see a new page open up, with back button disabled or not available.
2. This is because the BROWSER PAGE THAT HAS OPENED IS NEW, there has been NO PREVIOUS PAGE VISITED ON THIS NEW BROWSER.
3. You should have the original site opened up still.
4. If you now (in the new browser page where my site is opened) type in a new URL, say , www.yahoo.com, yahoo page will appear in place of sathyasaivictims. NOW YOU WILL SEE A BACK BUTTON, because this is the SECOND site opened on the same browser session.
5. Try typing in www.sathyasaivictims.com OVER www.yahoo.com, now the back button will be perfectly fine in our site when it opens again .
6. This proves that there is NOTHING wrong with the back button, NOR is there anything like "site hijacking" done.
Thank you for calling customer service , have a nice day :-)
Hari Sampath
Tony O'Clery 1365
08-04-2001 07:46 PM
Freedom from lust is happiness in the world, the going beyond all sensual desires.
But the crushing out of the conceit "I am"- this is the highest happiness.
Udana 10
Compare the words of Buddha with the words and actions of sb.
Balaraman Suresh 1363
08-04-2001 07:40 PM
Dear Hari, these guy's are baiting you with non-issues,just like Parti baba who does Un-Naturals acts and justifies it with Kundalini Yoga.
A Sparrow 1359
08-04-2001 07:01 PM
For those of you who haven't already seen, there are soe very interesting posts by one "knkitts" on the sathyasai discussion board on Yahoo.
Questor: like MW I never felt that I was forbidden to hang out with friends outside the raju group when I was a dev, but then I, too, live in the western half of the US. I noticed that the non-Indian devs (of whom I am one) were much stricter than the Indians about not associating with outsiders as well as being strictly vegetarian and attempting to be non-materialistic and non-worldly, but this was something that they put on themselves, rather than following any one else (except raju). It was as though they were trying to win the Good Devotee contest. I myself plead guilty
Balaraman Suresh 1358
08-04-2001 06:54 PM
Sarf or should i address you as Sanjay,this is the jet set.Hang on to Mama/Papa's Gown of Parti Baba to have your share of Linga Namaskar as Parti Baba will not give Pada Namaskar,but Parti Baba has contradicted his own statements so many times in the past he may do yet another "Bulti".Despite being asked to get out of this board,you keep coming back like the proverbial bad penny,pathetic though your state is as with all Parti Devotees,don't worry we all are there to catch your fall.
Hari Sampath 1349
08-04-2001 06:12 PM
To steelmouse:
>>The link to Saibabavictims works, but one cannot use the back button to get back to the referring site. This is a form of site hijacking and browser hijacking. <<
This is probably due to the links themselves on their sites. It has NOTHING to do with our site.
Sometimes hyperlinks open a site in a new page, or simply transfer you to the site .
Even from this board, if you click on the link posted in some message, it will open a new page and take you to our site, but this board will be open still. On the new page with the sathyasaivictims site, since that is the first site in the new browser session, there will be NO BACK button.
If the referring site is closing when our site is linked, then it is a problem on that site's link, not ours.
Check it up, before you resort to profane abuse.
Thanks,
Hari Sampath.
http://www.sathyasaivictims.com
Balaraman Suresh 1348
08-04-2001 06:07 PM
Edited by author 08-04-2001 06:15 PM
Dear Hari and Said,the website http://www.sathyasaivictims.com works just fine when you use your browser's back button.I think the Mouse has been caught by the cat in Parti and doesn't know which way to go,imagine coming to anti-Parti Baba's site.Good going guy's.
Andries 1347
08-04-2001 06:02 PM
Conversational Terrorism
How not to discuss on this board (and anywhere else)? Check this URL http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html Kind regards, Andries K.D.
Hari Sampath 1346
08-04-2001 06:01 PM
Edited by author 08-04-2001 06:03 PM
Sai Baba Inc : The money behind Sai Baba-4
Let us now consider the properties, assets and other wealth 'bequethed" to the Sai Baba trust by very wealthy devotees, in their wills.
This is a very difficult estimate to make, because there is no way of knowing who has given what, only the accountants in the Sai Baba central trust and the attorneys will know.
It is well known that many wealthy elderly followers of Sai Baba "make over" substantial assets to his trust in their wills. I had known several instances of old people bequething properties to the Sai Baba trust, in the range of $ 1 million to $ 20 million. There is also something called the delayed donation program, started since 1990, where followers "give over their property" to the Trust after their lifetimes, but continue to enjoy the benefits of this property during their lifetimes.
I have known several extremely wealthy followers in Germany, Sweden, Australia, United States, Japan, South Africa, UK , Canada, France etc... , having already participated in this kind of donation program.
As Sai Baba is reupted to have AT LEAST 5 million followers overseas, EVEN if we assume that very minimum 10000 such followers in the last 20 years were comfortably wealthy, easily affording to donate assets or properties over a 20 year period , worth $ 1 million dollars, we have a net worth of $ 10 Billions in assets and properties spread worldwide !!
This could well be appreciating in value and worth over the years, and I do know that there were many properties in the range of 100 acres to 300 acres of land given over to the Sai Baba Trust. It would all be worth a staggering amount, and what we are assuming here is a very low end of the scale.
This brings the Sai Baba Trust assets to a tune of $ 35 billion to $ 40 billion dollars !!!!
Nobody would know how much is stashed away, where, and in what ancillary trusts in various countries etc. Only half a dozen people in the Sai Baba Trust will ever know the true figures.
Remember , all this is only from Overseas devotees, and not counting Indian devotees.
While Indian devotees are not that wealthy by international standards, there are tens of thousands of devotees, who are far richer than overseas devotees, and do give huge sums. I know the ordinary Indian devotees do give a few thousands of rupees each year, while the wealthier ones donate houses, land etc.
After all this, what has the Sai Baba Trust really done ?? What costs they have of maintaining the Ashram ? All the work, including cleaning toilets is done by seva dals. The food is given at nominal rates, and prepared from rice, and other materials donated from neighboring states.
The 3 colleges are run , free of cost, and the students charged for food, hostel etc.
There are two hospitals (built on Govt donated land) with subsidised, medical equipments and medical supplies from Govt, and doctors doing surgeries free.
The water project was done at a cost of $ 50 million dollars, and has been handed over to the Andhra State govt for operations.
The sum total of ALL the "welfare activities" CANNOT be more than $ 200 - $ 250 million dollars , over the last 20 years, by any standards.
Even if my estimate of the Sai Baba org assets and donations( which was very conservative and reasonable) is terribly inaccurate, and two times overestimated, we still have the Sai Baba Trust worth at least $ 20 Billion dollars, very minimum.
All the money and other properties, MUST be somewhere.
The Indian politicians of course know this. Which is why they flock to Sai Baba and also "protect" him from any investigations.
The Overseas counchil presidents know this, which is why they "still have faith" in Sai Baba , and cover up the sexual molestations.
This is the story of the Sai Baba scam, in cold hard facts.
Thank you,
Hari Sampath.
Balaraman Suresh 1345
08-04-2001 05:56 PM
Dear Terrie,here is a wonderful link for you to gain knowledge regarding Kundalini Yoga,which will clearly explain to you and other's what Parti Baba's follower's have been dishing out statements defending him for his obnoxious un-natural acts and the real truth about it.
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/kundalini.htm
Questor 1343
08-04-2001 05:25 PM
Hari Sampath; How can anyone get in touch with you, regarding your offer to connect people with the pipleline?
-Q
Hari Sampath 1342
08-04-2001 05:24 PM
Sai Baba Inc : The money behind Sai Baba-3
The $ 16 Billion is a very rough estimate assuming very minimum number of "ordinary followers" donating very nominal sums over a stretch of time .
Now let us come to the 10 % of Sai Baba followers from overseas who can be considered to be "comfortably well off" financially. This is approximately 500,000. If these 500,000 followers accumulated over a period of 20 years, and each of them had AT LEAST given $5000 to $ 10,000 , very minimum 2 to 3 times over a period of 20 years, we can safely assume an average contribution of $ 20,000 for each person, over a 20 year period, this is a very conservative estimate, and is probably much more.
This makes the gradual contributions from "comfortable followers", over a 20 year period, AT LEAST $ 10 BILLION dollars !!
So, just the gradual contributions from overseas devotees , over a 20 year period will be very minimum in the range of $ 25 Billion to $ 30 Billion.
Hari Sampath.
Contd .....
Hari Sampath 1341
08-04-2001 04:56 PM
Sai Baba Inc : The money behind Sai Baba-2
If we assume that the 5 million overseas followers of Sai Baba had accumulated gradually over thirty years, and try to break it up over 5 year periods from 1970, we might have something like this :
1970 : 100,000
1975 : 250,000
1980 : 750,000
1985 : 1,500,000
1990 : 2,500,000
1995 : 3,500,000
2000 : 5,000,000
This is just a rough progression estimate, knowing that in later years more awareness about Sai Baba spread in the West and after 1985 large numbers of followers started coming .
Now , over a 30 year period, these 4.5 million ordinary followers of Sai Baba would have visited him anywhere between 2 to 20 times, and spent anywhere between $ 3000 to $ 50,000 JUST ON TRAVEL and other expenses.
When they are spending so much, it is reasonable to assume that they would at least donate $ 200 to $ 1000 once a year, depending on each person's affordabiluty. Of course there are those who haven't given anything at all, and those who have given much bigger sums, so it averages out.
So doing a donation pattern calculation,assuming that the average yearly amount donated by a follower from overseas is we get :
If 4 million followers had donated a very minimum of $ 400 per year on an average, for a very minimum of 10 years only, we have a total of.......$ 16 BILLION DOLLARS !!!
Now, I fully realise that many of the people MAY NOT have donated $ 400 a year , and also that many people do donate at least $ 1000 a year, and considering these numbers have been assumed on the very low side as well as ONLY 10 years considered, we have arrived at this figure.
$ 16 BILLIONS ......... at least !!
Hari Sampath.
Contd....
Hari Sampath 1340
08-04-2001 04:41 PM
Sai Baba Inc : The money behind Sai Baba-1
Dear All,
The easiest way to look for the source of Sai Baba's "immunity" from investigation and what exactly all this scam is about is to just take a look at the staggering amounts of money involved, and approximately estimate how much money does Sai Baba actually have.
*************************************************
We all know that Westerners started visiting Sai Baba in reasonable numbers from the early 1970s. Today Sai Baba is reputed to have some 30-50 million devotees , a number that is given by his followers. I am however inclined to put this between 10-20 million worldwide, with Sai Baba having around 10 million followers in India , and probably in the range of 5 million worldwide.
For the purposes of simplicity if we assume that he has 15 million followers( his devotees will object to this, I know, but just VERY MINIMUM for calculation purposes) , we nay assume that this folowing has been built up gradually over the last 30 years.
Okay, so we have 5 million "real committed followers" of Sai Baba spread among approximately 100 countries, outside India, and then some 10 million followers in India.
Now, we all know that MOST of these followers of Sai Baba from outside India visit him at varying frequencies, but would have at least visited Sai Baba a couple of times at the very minimum. A large number of followers do visit him once in 2-3 years from outside India.
Almost ALL Sai Baba followers try to follow his "teachings" on ceiling on desires, seva, giving to the less fortunate etc. I know that most Sai Baba folowers do spend a certain amount of time , effort and money in doing seva work in their own countries, individually as well as in groups.
Let us assume that a vast majority of these 5 million followers outside India are just normal folks, not immensely wealthy or anything, but just able to have a normal, reasonably comfortable standard of life.
Even if 90 % of these followers are just ordinary folks, and probably spend around $ 2000 , for a visit, once in 2-3 years, it is because Sai Baba occupies top priority in their lives, and they will look at all money they have for the "service of the Lord" and "given by him", after they spend for themselves and their families.
>From hundreds of conversations I have had with followers from all over the world, in Prashanti Nilayam, I found out that almost all of them donated at least a very modest amount to Sai Baba's trust each time they visited, sometimes directly, and sometimes through the organization in their countries. A very good majority of them had told me that they regularly send a monthly amount ( modest sum like $ 50 ) so that they could contribute to the mission of Sai Baba.
Many people had told me that they donate $1000 per year once a year, and several others had told me that they accumulate this and donate it when they visit PN.
All this was apart from the money they all spent in their respective countries doing seva.
This is just among the 90 % of followers of Sai Baba outside India, who could be described as normal middle class folks , that is , about 4.5 million people at the very minimum.
Contd....
Given these facts, let us see what is the range of
Andries 1339
08-04-2001 04:17 PM
Edited by author 08-04-2001 04:34 PM
Dear all,
May be this is interesting. Clearly not all is applicable to ex-devotees of SSB but quite a lot is imo. Kind regards, Andries K.D.
Psychological Issues of Former Members of Restrictive Religious Groups Jim Moyers, MA, MFT
(While this article was originally written for psychotherapists working with ex-fundamentalists, it should be helpful for anyone who has been involved with a restrictive religious group.)
Restrictive religious groups, characterized by rigid beliefs,authoritarian structure, rejection of mainstream culture, and atendency to isolate their members from outside influences that might lead to questions about the group's teachings, come in many forms from fringe cults to well established churches. While the experience of individuals involved with so-called cults that clearly deviate from established religious practice has been extensively discussed in both popular and professional literature, there is relatively little recognition of the similar issues presented by those affiliated with more restrictive forms of mainstream religion such as can be found in Christian fundamentalism.
Shattered Faith
There are many people who find membership in such groups to be apositive experience. This article is not so much concerned with them as it is with those who, often after a great deal of inner turmoil, leave such groups.
Many, especially those who had been intensely involved with their religion, experience what has been called the "shattered faith syndrome" (Yao, 1987).
Having lost faith in what was once a primary source of meaning and guidance, the former believer is apt to feel lost and overwhelmed. Estrangement from the community of believers - the focus of social life for most membersof restrictive religious groups- compounds the former member's isolation and despair.
The psychological effect of membership in a restrictive religious group often persists long after the outward severing of ties. There may be a chronic sense of dissatisfaction coupled with difficulty in finding new sources of meaning and direction. Former members are apt to distrust their own judgment, and may feel despair in their inability to recapture the certainty that they once experienced in unquestioningly accepting the group's teachings. Fundamentalist groups tend to view pride in oneself as sinful. This is internalized as the persistently negative self image that is apparent in many ex-believers. Sexual inhibitions, compulsions, frustration, and guilt are liable to linger on long after negative beliefs about sex have been consciously rejected. Having been taught to regard every impulse as potentially evil, the former group member may have little tolerance for spontaneity and lack the means for genuineself-expression. Conditioned distrust of the world outside the community of believers coupled with the experience of disillusionment with teachings that once seemed infallible can present serious obstacles to joining any group or making lasting commitments.
Issues Of the Former Member in Psychotherapy
Ex-members of restrictive religious groups rarely come into therapy with their religious past as the presenting issue. They are of course subject to the same pathogenic factors as everyone else: such a background is not an all-inclusive explanation for every problem aformer member may present. But as the work of therapy proceeds, unresolved conflicts involving past beliefs sometimes become apparent.
Religious conflicts should always be approached from a carefully neutral position. The therapist must walk a fine line between the traditional psychoanalytic bias against religion as pathological on one hand and naivet about the potential of some religious systems for undermining a healthy sense of self on the other. Even though the client may claim to have rejected her or his former beliefs, the therapist should remain neutral.
Emphasizing negative aspects of a once strongly held way of being in the world may trigger defense of something with which the client is still unconsciously identified. Criticism of past beliefs may be misconstrued as criticism of the client for having believed them. There may be shame in having once accepted as true things that now seem untenable.
The former member should be encouraged to look at the positive aswell as negative aspects of having belonged to a restrictive religious group. It is often helpful to approach the involvement as a developmental stage that was important, in ways both good and bad, in shaping the individual's life. As with any other developmental stage, the restrictive belief system was eventually outgrown. But unlike most other life stages, there is rarely a readily apparent next stage for the former believer to move on to. This is especially true with groups that actively discourage awareness of other systems of thought and lifestyles. Group members may know nothing about other religions, the humanities, or modern critical thought. Education in schools operated by the group, where all ideas are filtered through the shared belief system, tends to increase social and cultural isolation. Thus the former member may be unaware of alternative approaches to spiritual and existential questions. Support for spiritual and philosophical explorations,
in contrast to the limits set by the former belief system, will help validate the client's capacity for independent thought. Without the unequivocal pronouncements that once guided them, former members of restrictive groups are apt to feel lost and confused. In any transition, there is a naturally occuring period of time between the collapse of old beliefs and their replacement by a new set of guiding principles. Kuhn's (1970) account of the disorientation that occurs when a scientific viewpoint once thought to be definitive fails to fit emergent facts can be applied to the similar confusion that comes with shifts in religious belief. Bridge's (1980) concept of an "empty" middle phase in transitions is also helpful in normalizing the ex-believer's sense of confusion and inner emptiness as a natural part of the process of moving beyond outmoded views about self and the world.
The tenets of a restrictive religious group serve as the primary source of meaning and self definition for its members. In departing from them, the former believer loses what may well have been the central focus of her or his life. As with any loss, there is an associated grief process which, however, often goes unrecognized. Acknowledging losses as well as gains in leaving the group, and normalizing the depression the ex-member may feel as a natural response to the loss can go a long way towards helping him or her move through the necessary grief process.
Ex-believers often feel doubly misunderstood and isolated. Family and friends who remain in the group are likely to have little tolerance for the views of anyone who has rejected their beliefs. People who do not share the same background are not likely to understand the intense and long lasting effects of having once belonged to a restrictive religion. Often the connection between current life difficulties and past religious experience is not apparent even to the former member.
Fundamentalist doctrines emphasize human imperfection, maintaining that there is no possibility for doing good without the assistance of divine grace. Along with the loss of idealized images about the group and its leaders, the disillusioned believer also loses what was believed to be the only hope of salvation. Self esteem based upon association with the group and its "sure truths," is seriously impacted when one no longer belongs to the group. I have found Jung's (1965) concept of the self as an inner, transcendent sourceof healing and wholeness that is often projected onto institutions and their leaders useful in helping people reclaim aspects of themselves that they may have given away to the group. In addition, Jung's psychological awareness of spirituality and account of his own struggle with religious beliefs can be very helpful for individuals seeking a new way to understand their religious experience.
In therapy as well as in other relationships, the projections formerly carried by the group and its leaders are likely to appear in the form of idealization or devaluation, with the two processes sometimes alternating.
Ex-believers may need to test a relationship to see if they are at risk for another painful betrayal. Therapeutic process often revolves around reclamation of the personal authority once given over to the group, and now perhaps projected ontosignificant others as well as the therapist.
The former believer may be very adept at unconsciously meeting the perceived expectations of others. Denial, repression, splitting, and a false sense of self are often well developed defense mechanisms.The black and white thinking expressed in such conflicting pairs of opposites as God vs. devil, church vs. world, sin vs. righteousness, leads to repression of anything that might possibly be construed as unacceptable. Constant self monitoring and rigid self control, along with confession of every sin in prayer, may have been regarded as the only means for avoiding divine condemnation. In the literalism characteristic of fundamentalism, an "evil" thought or feeling is considered just as sinful as an evil act. Impulses and feelings may be believed to be demonic in origin. The former group member is likely to need frequent reminders that there is nothing inherently evil about negative feelings, and the fact of their existence does not mean that they will be acted out. Strongly held beliefs greatly complicate family dynamics when not all family members share those beliefs. Unlike former members of "cults" whose families likely opposed their group membership, individuals who leave fundamentalism often leave family members behind. People who have left religious groups to which their families still belong will need support in coping with the anger, pain, and grief of being misunderstood and judged.
They will also need assistance in maintaining a personal philosophy that clashes with the deeply held beliefs of family members. Family interactions can become dominated by the well meant attempts of the "faithful" to persuade their "lost loved one" to return to "the Truth." Conversely, the former believer's desire to win family and friends over to his or her condemnation of the group is often as strong as the desire of those who still belong to bring her or him back into the fold.
Dysfunctional family patterns are sometimes hidden behind the idealized image of the religiously affiliated family, an image that is apt to fail when faith in the church is lost. The discovery of pathology in one's family presents yet another challenge to previously held beliefs. Adolescents from families belonging to restrictive religious groups often rebel through gross violations of the strict moral codes that have been prescribed for them.
Sexual acting out, running away, and substance abuse may represent attempts to establish autonomy in the face of overbearing parental andreligious authority. Divorce and bitter child custody disputes, based in black and white conflicts over transcendent values, often occur when one spouse leaves a restrictive religious group while the other remains. While not all groups go so far as to prohibit contact with those who leave, a former member is unlikely to be well regarded by the faithful. Conclusion Psychological issues of formermembers of restrictive religious are unique in the degree to which they involve past religious belief and experience. It is important to remember that what may seem to be eccentric ideas and practices are likely to have been very important in shaping the former believer's life. In addition to the usual goals of psychotherapy, former members may need assistance in exploring lingering religious conflicts, as well as support in seeking sources of meaning and guidance more congruent with current beliefs and lifestyle.
References
Bridges, W. (1980). Transitions. Reading, Mass. Jung, C.G. (1965).
Memories, Dreams, Reflections. New York: Random House. Kuhn, T.S.(1970).
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Yao, R. (1987).
Addiction and the Fundamentalist Experience. New York: Fundamentalists Anonymous.
Earlier versions of this article appeared in Psychotherapy, The California Therapist, and Cultic Studies Journal.
(c)1999 James C. Moyers
Hari Sampath 1338
08-04-2001 04:15 PM
To Anthony :
With your permission, I wish to post a few messages about the financial implications of Sai Baba Inc. and WHY SB is so powerful (in terms of political influence) and what the real financial stakes are here, something that very few followers and ex folowers know.
I hope that this would help in seeing all his "charity works" for what they are in reality.
Thanks
Hari Sampath.
Sunrise 1337
08-04-2001 02:15 PM
"Baba's a Bad Trickster" Suresh's link is now on Sunrise.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise (Media page)
Anthony 1336
08-04-2001 01:26 PM
Questor
Thank you very much for your posts. Very helpful.
Dennis
Not really sure what you meant in 1333. Sorry.
Hari
Thank you for your civil reply re the back button.
Sunrise and Hari
Please post your website urls every now and again, so that new people are aware of them. Thanks
Sunrise 1335
08-04-2001 01:15 PM
Ref #1330 Suresh,
The India Today link will go on Sunrise today. The reason that Sunrise has some sparse pages is that we had a limited number of links and articles when we set up the site in June. All of Keenan's site had been lost, but is now preserved on saivictims.com.
Any additional media links are welcome. Send them to Sunrise or post them here. For the time being, we provide links to Hari's site, which is more comprehensive, especially the media section.
We welcome any additions to Pipeline. Again, the limited list is all we had to work with.
Questor 1334
08-04-2001 12:12 PM
Marswalker;
Obviously you haven't been to a sai center on the East coast, in the last few months. Especially if you live in Seattle!!!
That is where the tightly run ship is, as I pointed out. Are you an ex-dev?
I don't remember if you are. If so, why don't you ask some recent ex's from the East coast. I have seen it with my own eyes and ears. I have also seen people publicly chastised for no reason, in the sai meetings. It happens quite capriciously.
As I said before, the West coast has been more loosely run, and more westernized. Having spoke to a number of people out west, I was impressed with the difference in style.
Folks who are involved in the expose can tell you this too. I am not talking through my hat.
Let's talk about this; it's not just the molestations that make this an abusive group.
MarsWalker108 1333
08-04-2001 11:53 AM
Hi Terrie and Anthony, Why is it my edit of 1332 did not follow through?
Dennis
MarsWalker108 1332
08-04-2001 11:48 AM
Edited by author 08-04-2001 11:50 AM
Dear Questor,
Very interesting post! I would like to make a comment about the study groups in the United States. During the early and mid 70's I was study group coordinator of the first Sai center in Seattle. Up to the time of becoming a fomer SSB devotee about 14 months ago, I attended the study group of one of the largest Sai centers in the US continuously for l15 years. We were always allowed and did ask questions in our study circle.
Dennis
Hari Sampath 1331
08-04-2001 10:51 AM
Dear Questor :
Most meaningful post : Thank you.
Please ask anyone and everyone to get in touch with me , if they so wish, and I can get ex devotees, ex SB org officials in the US to help them recover ( I don't mean Indian ex devotees like myself in the US , but others).
Thanks,
Hari
Balaraman Suresh 1330
08-04-2001 10:41 AM
Dear George at Sunrise,Can i make a suggestion?Please include the link to India Today expose in the Media section of sunrise website.No doubt Salon is widely followed by Americans,but remember Parti Baba is an Indian with much emphasis on Hindu religion and what he discourses about other religion are purely good public relation work.Has Parti Baba ever questioned the authenticity of Bhagavad Gita compared to Holy Bible?Why?Parti Baba knows which side of his bread is buttered ....chuckle chuckle.
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20001204/cover3.shtml Hari Sampath 1329
08-04-2001 10:39 AM
steelmouse,
>>>Clever buggers, the BACK BUTTON is hijacked once you get to this site <<< The back button works fine, perhaps you need to check your browser settings, or something else.
Thanks for visiting our site :-) Please come "back" :-) Hari Sampath
Anthony 1328
08-04-2001 10:12 AM
Steelmouse 1327
How typical to assume this has been done deliberately! Don't you know how much work is involved in putting a website together. It takes ages to learn the technicalities and how to organise a site so the back button works. I have left your post up for the moment, simply to show how one has a choice to either work from distrust and agression - or from trust and love.
Questor 1326
08-04-2001 09:29 AM
Just an addendum to my last post: I don't want to sound anti-India since I am a great admirer of the culture and history of the country, and have studied it too. But I am aware of the extremist individuals who are running many of the centers.
Just to clarify, I am also equally critical of extremist religious leaders of any denomination.
In addition, I want to point out that it is the American faction of educated elitist individuals in the sai organization, such as Goldstein, Sandweiss and others have really propagated this in the US. Americans and Westerners are equally responsible. Many gullible American teachers are being used in the EHV programs, and are made to believe that they will be going all around the world to spread the word of sai.
So credit also to the American Westerners who are also sheep in the ssb organization.
Obviously, as we know, the main leaders of the Expose have been Hari and Afshin, who are NOT Westerners by birth, but have a deep committment to truth and justice.
But I have actually heard this from others; that the centers that are run by folks from India are more tightly controlled. In fact, someone from out West told me that it was much easier to "defect" out there because most of the centers were less tied to India, and the rigid structure of the ssb organization.
Let me know if I am mistaken. I would be interested in any comments on my rant. Obviously it would make for interesting and useful discussion. And this is the right place to have this discussion.
Sincerely,
Questor
Questor 1325
08-04-2001 09:10 AM
Hi Everyone:
The websites--all of them are beautiful, and a big improvement over past websites. That is natural, and no reflection on previous webmasters who led the way.
I also noticed sunrise has a pipeline for contact with other ex-devotees.
But it is a small list, and has very few US contacts; most are in Europe, specifically the Netherlands!! How about other European ex-devotees coming forward in France, Italy, and even Greece I hear has a center! What about Eastern Europe?
Most importantly, how about more American (North and South) ex-devotees coming forward and offering their knowledge and compassion, and more information about how ssb organization brainwashes its subjects.
If you are a recovering ex-devotee, and want to get out of the blue funk of being an "ex" why not try making yourself available to others who need someone to talk to? Or being available for friends and families of devotees to talk to? You have no idea how much that is needed. I know friends, families who are at a loss as to how to approach their devotee loved ones.
There are many practices that are secret, and requirements by ssb devotees, that separate devotees from the rest of society.
For instance, SSb meetings have something called "study circles" in which someone presents some "principle" of devotion, and then people are allowed to comment. No questions are allowed, and no answers are given. One is allowed only to extoll the virtues of the principle. Usually the message is clear: total devotion to sai, total self denial, and total acceptance. Lots of devotees are sheepish about their inability to perform or fulfill the requirements of devotion. They just feel spritually second-rate. But they are actually the lucky ones, because they are aware of being human, and still leading a semi-normal life.
The unfortunate ones are those who are such extreme believers, that they scowl at those who can't fulfill all of the devotional requirements of ssb.
These people are truly in a tragic situation, giving years of their lives to a self-serving, authoritarian religion.
Some of these people, when confronted with the facts, or even approached will say "you have your Jesus" (as if they think they know my beliefs) and "you just want to put India down". Part of this has to do with the extremist Indians who run many of the sai centers all over the country. They have taken any criticism as anti-India, when it has little to do with India, and everything to do with authoritarian control. Which is ok perhaps, for Indian families who have it in their culture.
Westerners, on the other hand, usually from Protestant backgrounds, or even Catholic, Jewish, Eastern Orthodox, are really separated from their families, their culture, and their friends. And they are used by their center leaders.
Some devotees have even "dared" to consort with *others* who are not ssb devotees. They are quickly snapped back into the cult.
The controls are ever so subtle, ever so "spiritual", and the controlers have absolutely no interest in the human needs of those individuals they are using.
Of course, those devotees have chosen the extremist path have to take some responsibility, but if one reads the mind control books, understands how the deception is achieved, one understands that the process is a slow, gradual process, where the individual is sucked in long before he is aware of the extreme practices, and long before he is aware of what he will be giving up.
By the time he is aware of what is happening to him (or her) he is trapped.
As I was once told: "I can't go back!!!!)
All you lurking ex-devotees; now is your chance to help others. Look at Hans de Kraker, and how he is helping molestation victims all over the world, single handedly.
Think about ex-devotees, or the friends or families of those still involved.
Send your contact name and an e-mail address to the Pipeline at Sunrise. I am sure George will be happy to post it. Use an alias if you have to.
Contact some of those people who are already on the pipeline, and find out what it's like to be an ex-dev who is publicly helping others.
Another thing that would be helpful is if someone created a poster that could be downloaded from the web that enumerates the alleged crimes of ssb, so that people could print it out and leave it at strategic locations. It could be a brief list of these alleged crimes, and a list of the websites were more information could be gotten. People could then distribute these at the various sai centers around the world, discreetly, of course! I have seen other anti-cult groups do this. Use colorful eye-catching designs that don't cost too much to print up. Maybe a photo of ssb with his crimes, and then the links to the anti-sai websites.
Please excuse my emotional plea. But I believe that anyone who is suffering in the aftermath of leaving ssb will feel a lot better if he is reaching out to others.
With compassion,
Questor
Anthony 1324
08-04-2001 04:22 AM
Sunrise
It is perfect that you put up the most important things first. I have no problem with you putting the past messages up when you have the time.
Tony
Perhaps along with the real understanding of highest truth comes an equal understanding of the fear that can be invoked in people who are confronted with concepts of 'no identity' and 'illusionary matter' bringing greater responsibility in the use of one's words.
However, ideas of illusion is just a viewpoint. The world around us is very real and very beautiful, we are all individuals -special and unique -and the learning that can be obtained is immense. And eternity is a long time!
Terrie 1321
08-04-2001 02:45 AM
Ref: #1317, 1318
Many thanks Hari and Suresh. I am now suitably enlightened! You were both very helpful.
Sunrise 1320
08-04-2001 02:22 AM
Edited by author 08-04-2001 02:24 AM
Six new items went on the site today (finally!) http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
On the EX-DEVOTEE page:
Sex in the Interview Room? eyewitness Ella Evers reports Glen Meloy's letter to ex-devotees (posted here on QT) Conny Larsson's second letter to SB (Dec 2000) This letter has just been edited and improved for English.
Dave Brandt's public letter on kundalini: July 2001
On the BREAKING NEWS page:
Pertinent words words about India and SB from Suresh, Supriya, and Bhakthan Ricardo Baba appears in Argentina, followed quickly by a letter from the sai org.
Next: All those deleted messages from this board will go on the discussion page.