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This document contains posts 750-791 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.

Questor 791

07-24-2001 05:04 PM

Edited by author 07-24-2001 05:15 PM

In response to you, Terrie,

>"And of course, all of this discussion is opinion."

>>No, that is not true, Questor, and here is the crux of the discussion. Anthony, for

example, does not "imagine" astral planes. He has direct experience of them. I and

many others do not "imagine" different energies surrounding people. We genuinely feel

them. It's the same as the difference between the hot sun and a hurricane. If you

were blind, you could still feel the difference between the two.

I think perhaps we should call what you experience YOUR perception--or Anthony's. That is subjective. There are no facts in the spiritual realm.

Because there is no real consensus.

>>And some of us also feel the "vibrations" of a specific place. Sensing what is around us

is a natural way of functioning for some people. I did not "imagine" that ssb gave out

no spiritual vibes on my trips to the ashram. I do not "imagine" when one person is

angry and another one happy, though at first they may show no signs of outward

emotion.

Often, we may perceive or misperceive. It is our own experience.

>>Then there are the "intellectual" types like you and Andries. Your functioning is more in

the head in the realm of ideas. Chances are for both of you your sight function is very

well developed. You may see objects and details around you that others miss. "Head"

people generally don't sense energies. They depend on logic and thought processes

for their input and knowledge.

In fact, I do not have developed sight. In terms of Jungian types I am more of an intuitive/feeling type. But I am also a skeptic. I perceive and I experience. And I do resent being labelled as an "intellectual" type, though I have a couple of degrees myself. I sense "energies" all right, and I call it "charisma", an ancient sanscrit and greek word. Charisma is that ability to communicate with nonverbal cues, that are very powerful. Logic, thought, and intuition, and feeling are not as separate as you think.

>> Questor, you can't judge another person's experience by your own. We each perceive

in unique ways. The people who "sense" energy felt ssb's "love," what Sunrise called

"shakti." But their undeveloped intuition called this "love" rather than potent energy.

I don't judge others experience by my own. I merely tell them that their experience is THEIR experience, not mine. Oh, I know what these things feel like, and I know that some people have greater gifts of non-verbal communication than others, or of experiencing than others, or just experience or perceive in a different way.

I don't judge you at all. I merely say that all is perception. Obviously, you mistook charisma for love.

>>Yes, most of us have faulty intuition. But this isn't the same as saying the astral

plane, emotional energy, etc. is all imagination.

I am saying that these entities that you name may or may not exist. I have seen many mistakes on the basis of belief in astral planes and bodies.

>>The above isn't just my opinion. I have university degrees in psychology....and Carl

Jung, in particular, recognized the different types of functioning among individuals.

I think Jung was overrated, as was Freud, and a few others. Even Ghandi had his faults. We need to see that and stop worshipping people. No one has the absolute answers. I would even say that you are proselytizing on this board, and it is not nice. For those of us who do not believe in Yogananda or any other guru, you should be more respectful.

It is possible to be close to God, and not be a dogmatic devotee of anyone.

And it is unkind to keep shoving Yogananda in our faces.

>>People perceive and experience the world in different ways, and this is fully accepted

in academic psychological circles.

That is true, and that is where I agree with you. Our experience of what we call spirit, is something unique in each of us. If only we could understand this concept, we would be more tolerant and understanding of others.

I agree with Hari Sampath, as regards the materializing of objects, which is quite concretely deception. There is no mystery about it. It's on the video tapes that are on the web.

It is fine if you want to believe that these things are so, and to validate those who believe it too, but try please not to stuff it down the throats of those who do not accept this as a spiritual phenomenon.

Of course, this is your board, and Anthony's, from what I can tell, and you can do whatever you like. But you will drive people away who DO oppose ssb, and who may not subscribe to your particular recipe of beliefs.

No one has all the answers. Some of us just think we do.

-Questor

>> Sorry, but on a discussion board I can't address all the ideas in your post. It would

take a book.

I wouldn't say so. I think it is quite clear what I think, and in a nutshell I have stated it here, and in my previous post . Beware of voluminous exegeses. They often say very little.

To recapitulate, religion and spirituality is a subjective experience, that varies from individual to individual. We should be respectful of that fact.

And we should try not to force our beliefs, experiences, concepts of religion, on others. End of story. And that does NOT exclude a belief in God.

Hairy Samputt 789

07-24-2001 04:00 PM

Hari Sampath Minus Sai Baba Equals To Zero:

Baba's Miracles.

In fact, all doubts and criticisms about Sri Sathya Sai Baba's miracles of creating many kinds of objects are absolutely baseless and false. The researcher himself has seen many of these miracles of Baba during the last 24 years inside Baba's interview room and outside at Prasanthi Nilayam, Brindavan and Delhi. There is, therefore, no justification, whatsoever, in saying that Baba does not have the powers of doing miracles, or that his miracles are merely magic and sorcery or tantrik feats. There is no element of deception or show in Baba's miracles. The miracle-making power of Baba is not fading or weakening; the studies of Professor Haraldsson and Professor M.N. Das have made it amply clear. As regards the so-called miracle that failed - the creation of gold chain at Hyderabad on 29.8.1993, we really cannot believe the press reports. When Baba has been daily performing thousands of miracles including creation of gold chains, diamond rings, etc, since his birth in 1926, it is unbelievable that at Hyderabad he could not create the chain and his secretary or some one else handed it over to him.

Never has his secretary or any associate from behind been heard to be there to pass on any object secretly. It is likely that either some divine angel might have handed over the chain to Baba. (The existence of divine angels has been proved by scholars) or may be that the tape in question was the work of some manipulator. It is also likely that since Baba had praised the Prime Minister Narasimha Rao unequivocally and appealed to all people to support him, this might have offended some leaders of other political parties and the original tape might have been tampered with to defame Baba.

Sanathana Sarathi of Sept. 1993, of course, had then reported that Baba had indeed created that gold chain for R. Chakrapani, the architect of the Kalyana Mandapam at Secunderabad. Baba's organizatio

Terrie 788

07-24-2001 01:34 PM

Edited by author 07-24-2001 01:52 PM

Ref #786, Questor: You wrote....

"And of course, all of this discussion is opinion."

No, that is not true, Questor, and here is the crux of the discussion.

Anthony, for example, does not "imagine" astral planes. He has direct experience of them. I and many others do not "imagine" different energies surrounding people. We genuinely feel them. It's the same as the difference between the hot sun and a hurricane. If you were blind, you could still feel the difference between the two.

And some of us also feel the "vibrations" of a specific place. Sensing what is around us is a natural way of functioning for some people. I did not "imagine" that ssb gave out no spiritual vibes on my trips to the ashram. I do not "imagine" when one person is angry and another one happy, though at first they may show no signs of outward emotion.

Then there are the "intellectual" types like you and Andries. Your functioning is more in the head in the realm of ideas. Chances are for both of you your sight function is very well developed. You may see objects and details around you that others miss. "Head" people generally don't sense energies. They depend on logic and thought processes for their input and knowledge.

Questor, you can't judge another person's experience by your own. We each perceive in unique ways. The people who "sense" energy felt ssb's "love," what Sunrise called "shakti." But their undeveloped intuition called this "love" rather than potent energy.

Yes, most of us have faulty intuition. But this isn't the same as saying the astral plane, emotional energy, etc. is all imagination.

The above isn't just my opinion. I have university degrees in psychology....and Carl Jung, in particular, recognized the different types of functioning among individuals. People perceive and experience the world in different ways, and this is fully accepted in academic psychological circles.

Sorry, but on a discussion board I can't address all the ideas in your post.

It would take a book.

Hari Sampath 787

07-24-2001 01:16 PM

To Sarf :

>>>>>Terrie, it is highly presumptuous for us to speculate on things we are clueless about. It's a waste of time and will certainly lead you to wrong conclusions.

Do you have any idea how Sai Baba materializes objects? Neither of us does.

So how can we debate on the why of it? Here is a being beyond our ken. His powers over nature are inexplicable by science. His very existence proves to us that there is a higher reality that we are completely unaware of. To me, it just confirms that spirituality is not just the 'opium of the masses' as the atheists would have us believe, but something real and worth striving for.

I just think that Yogananda was being a hypocrite. His book would not have been so popular without all the stories of miracles in it.<<<<

We are not speculating on things we are clueless about. We do know how Sai Baba performs his so called "miracles". He hides small objects and produces them using sleight of hand.

He has been seen doing that thousands of times, and there are a number of videos that show him doing it. In the Christmas 1996 "materialization" of the small bible supposedly recovered from the black sea or somewhere, the book can be seen in his hand just before he starts waving it ( and it has a lot of spelling mistakes, as does a small copy of The Bhagavad Gita SB "produced" for Bhagavantham in the 1970s)

Several other videos clearly show him pulling out chains, rings, as well as crushing vibuthi tablets, apart from the innumerable witnesses who have seen him do it.

There is no question of SB's "miracles" being beyond science, simply because he has never been scientifically tested, and of course wouldn't allow it.

SB's "miracles' which are all faked, actually acts as a trigger to deep and abiding faith, and I have seen several remote phenomena experienced by his followers which were probably genuine, but NOT caused by SB.

SB's existence proves the existence of a higher reality , you say. I agree completely 100 % . Because, since SB is a proven fraud and a fake, and if sincere faith in his name and form really results in his followers experiencing phenomena, then it conclusively proves two things.

1. SB is a fraud.

2. There is a Real Higher power that does answer genuine faith, and fulfils the seeking of followers, despite the fact that SB is a fraud.

Your comment that Yogananda is a hypochrite because of miracles in his book is laughable. What about SB ??

SB minus "miracles" = ZERO.

By the way, I have a question for you.

If SB is God, beyond science etc , please explain the following.

For 60 years SB has been proclaiming about various incidents that took place on "October 20th, Monday, 1940" when he "declared his divinity" after going and returning from school.

Since that day was NOT a Monday, but a Sunday, naturally a none of those incidents could have taken place as SB has been repeatedly saying for 60 years.

I have been raising this question to SB folowers for months now and have NOT got even one answer. Do you have any ?

Thanks,

Hari Sampath.

Questor 786

07-24-2001 09:24 AM

Hi Andries, Terrie, All,

Just watching the debate regarding "higher planes" and I do agree with Andries. One cannot be assured of the purity or truthfulness of any yogi, really. Just like love relationships, you take it one day at a time, and work with the faults and the positives.

One cannot be certain of the existence of "etheric bodies" or "astral bodies" or "planes" or shakti, or any of the powers or entities that have been described. They are just other types of beliefs.

Brainwashing/mind control is just an extreme form of influence. That means there are various degrees of influence, from mild, ie, what color dress you should buy might be influenced by your friends or the latest fashions, to what kind of religion your family chooses, and how it might affect your choice of a spouse, to brainwashing where you have people inducted into totally mind-controlling religions or belief systems. Your mother influences you, and even the pope influences you, to some degree or other.

As for intuition, transpersonal communication, all those supersensible kinds of phenomena, I believe they are not necessarily religious at all, but just other senses, common to all humans, with no real explanation. They may be attributed to "spirituality" by those who want to interpret them that way.

They are just phenomena we can't necessarily explain.

Remember that religions and spiritualism appropriate ideas, beliefs, phenomena as their own. No law or proof exists to validate this except our own belief systems. That is not to say that I personally deny the existence of a higher power. Just that what to attribute to this power is not anything that we can necessarily know for sure.

If we believe others' words, or have some kind of experience of it, and interpret it in a way that makes it real for us, at that point WE make it our truth. It is a decision that we make, consciously, whether we realize it or not. It's a choice!

As for Terrie's preoccupation with Yogananda, I do find it irritating, but she has a right to believe in her yogi, just as I have a right to my own tendency NOT to believe in a yogi. I trudged through that book, and don't really find it moves me. (Sorry, Terrie)

I think we need to be more tolerant here, and I don't think Andries is a pro-sai person, unless I am missing something really salient. And I am certainly not pro-sai. I am sure there are people lurking here who have all types of beliefs. We need to be tolerant of all of them.

Perhaps not so tolerant of the ssb believers because of the damage he has caused to so many, in my opinion. I think the purpose of this board is to evaluate the words and actions of ssb, and discuss them in a mature manner.

And of course, all of this discussion is opinion.

-Regards to all,

-Q

Questor 785

07-24-2001 08:36 AM

Marswalker, could you please tell us from where the Hindu scripture quote about forgiveness is from?

Thanks, Q

Andries 784

07-24-2001 07:20 AM

Ref 782,Ref 783 Dear Terrie & Anthony,

Sorry, I don't want you, Terrie, to get more confused but I am an ex-devotee and I agree with Sarf's reasoning with regards to dreams and internal experiences. I don't consider Sarf's postings off topic.

Sarf wrote

>If you claim to have expereince of higher reality, how do >we believe its true and not just your imagination?

There are so many people who claim to have internal experiences or intuition with regards to SSB. Some of these internal experiences say that SSB is God.

Some say that SSB is a dark lord. With so many contradictions I find it hard to take any internal experience/intuition seriously. Not even my own. Only when many people have the same internal experiences or intuition I'm inclined to take them seriously. This is called intersubjectivity. I have noticed this intersubjectivity with people who claimed that they were able to see other people's auras.

In spite of my ever growing doubt and distrust about all metaphysical ideas I still believe in the concept of purified intuition but that is something I don't have and I am very wary of persons who claim to have it. Some people may have it but it works probably only for certain situations and subjects.

I'm more inclined to take somebody's intuition seriously when it is confined to this person and to the present situation of this person.

Kind regards, Andries K.D.

Terrie 783

07-24-2001 06:39 AM

Edited by author 07-24-2001 07:01 AM

Anthony, this "sarf" person, I think, may be Dr. Seva or maybe Sanjay.

Whoever it is, he'll go on and on pretending to want to discuss ideas, but he is really just dumping ssb energy all over the board.

This ardent devotee "sarf" is very fond of instigating useless arguments which distract from the purpose of the board.

Maybe he just likes to argue. Or maybe he has a darker purpose in mind. In arguing, he goes off the track in all kinds of crooked ways. We might as well not follow him into confusion. (Maybe he's a trained attorney! He's very good at confusing the mind...his own and everyone else's.)

He's one who will likely go down with the ship.

sarf 782

07-24-2001 03:11 AM

Anthony, I am not talking of the dream world here. Obviously we all dream and thats beyond what the eyes see.

If you claim to have expereince of higher reality, how do we believe its true and not just your imagination?

The miracles on the other hand are tangible evidence, and thats why I find them so significant.

Do you possess any such abilities?

Anthony 781

07-24-2001 02:43 AM

NOTE to all: To assist administration of the board, all the messages up to number 441 have been deleted and will now be listed on the website under discussion. Anyone wanting to look at those earlier posts, please go to the website - http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/index.htm

They will be posted there shortly.

I will be be mentioning this every now and again, so that newcomers to this board will know where to go.

Anthony 780

07-24-2001 02:15 AM

Sarf

Whose speculating!! I'm certainly not. Why do you assume that noone has the ability to see beyond what the eyes see!

Hari Don't worry. You are quite right. As soon as there is some rubbish up under your name, we all know it is an imposter who hasn't the guts to use their own name. In fact, most of the pro 'sb' postings are from the once source using various aliases. But you know that too.

This board is for legitimate discussion betwen people who have left the clutches of 'sb' and those who genuinely have doubts about him. It is not for pro 'sb' devotees who are not anywhere near contemplating that the guy is a faud. There are lots of pro 'sb' boards and discussions and meetings for those people to attend and speak at and we suggest that is what you do.

If you ever reach the point where you start to see the truth, then please return for any assistance we may be able to give you. If you never have doubts about the guy, then may God (the real God) bless you and hold you in his care - whenever you choose to allow that.We all wish you well.

All rubbish and attacks that are not contributing to this board, will be deleted.

sarf 779

07-24-2001 01:14 AM

OK, goodbye Terrie. I guess I offended you by calling your guru Yogananda a hypocrite?

Anyone else care to explain why Yogananda devotees condemn Sai Baba for performing miracles, when Y himself talks endlessly about them in his book?

Why did his devotees mention the miracle of Yogananda's body staying undecomposed in the preface to his book?

Lets try to be consistent shall we? Is that too much to ask?

Terrie 778

07-24-2001 12:46 AM

Sarf, you are showing that you are unable or unwilling to engage in a rational discussion, and neither can you stay polite for long. Why is this so very typical of ssb's devotees?? Because this is the nature of the guru's energy which is so much a part of them.

Goodbye, Sarf.

Sarf

07-24-2001 12:35 AM

Terrie, it is highly presumptuous for us to speculate on things we are clueless about. It's a waste of time and will certainly lead you to wrong conclusions.

Do you have any idea how Sai Baba materializes objects? Neither of us does.

I just think that Yogananda was being a hypocrite. His book would not have been so popular without all the stories of miracles in it.

George at Sunrise 774

07-24-2001 12:27 AM

Ref #770, Andries:

Andries, we don't agree with you at all re: other realms, miracles, etc. If you don't like that section of the site, then don't read it. Anthony has very elequently stated the reasons to be concerned with other planes, unseen energies and so forth.

Why not design your own site, emphasizing what you want to?

Sometimes, Andries, you sound positively pro-sai!!

Terrie 773

07-24-2001 12:18 AM

All right, Sarf, let's go from generalities to specfics. Let's start with a "miracle" from Yogananda's autobiograhy. We'll talk about the context, what the miracle was, and why it was performed. Then we'll see if we can find a somewhat similar miracle by ssb, performed for similar reasons.

So please quote from the book: give us a miracle, and we'll go from there.

Please understand, however, that I don't think there are really "miracles." I think that so-called miracles are laws of nature that we don't know about yet. Just like mankind at one time didn't know about fire.

If a space ship had landed and a being lit a fire, primitive peoples would have thought that was a miracle. But today we all know about fire. Sometime far in the future, it will be the same with today's so-called miracles.

sarf 772

07-23-2001 07:37 PM

Terrie, what makes you think people were more hard-hearted in the time of Jesus than they are now? I think the opposite is true. People are far more materialisic today than they were then.

And Jesus performed many more miracles than the ones mentioned. Since his ministry was so short we can conclude that he too was quite a prolific miracle man.

You didnt answer the question: How did Yogananda explain away the fact that Krishna and Jesus performed miracles?

And you didnt even touch the question: What about the miracles of Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya in his own book? Shouldn't Yogananda at least be consistent?

Andries 770

07-23-2001 06:25 PM

Dear George at Sunrise, Terrie, Anthony, Sparrow and all,

I notice that there is much writings here and on the sunrise site about miracles by SSB, realms, negative energies and so forth. Frankly, I don't want to sound insulting, but unless all more down to earth explanations are exhausted this makes a bit superstitious impresssion on me. For me and may be others too the sunrise website loses credibility unnecessarily when giving those kind of explanations.

Here are some more down to earth explanations

1. For miracles there are very often explanations like misunderstanding and exaggeration.

2. For the belief that SSB can do miracles that may be just a psychological residue of the sociopath influence that SSB has on people.

3. For people problems with disconnecting like me that's only natural when SSB whom I trusted more than my mother, my intermediary towards God, turned out to be a sexual pervert.

4. Of course it seems that SSB leads people away from God because when people lose their faith in SSB they will probably have the feeling that they have been spiritually abused and this feeling may a need al lot of time for healing.

5. Vocal ex-devotees like me may suffer from personal problems. People often suffer from personal problems. This may not be caused by negative energies.

6. Miracles beyond reasonable doubt after praying to SSB doubt may be caused because God can't blame people for worshipping the wrong form. Not because of SSB's powers.

7. As a comment on Jagadeesan's letter I read 'Powerful controlling shakti'.

I think calling this getting inspired explains more.

8. The term brainwashing explains nothing imo. It has no added value when compared with the term influence. When e.g. Margaret Thatcher says that all companies have to get state owned then I would have thought that I have misheard her words because I was influenced by the media. Not brainwashed.

In the same way a boy will not think that an alleged holy man like SSB means something sexually when SSB touches the boy's crotch.

Kind regards, Andries

Hari Sampath 769

07-23-2001 06:23 PM

I noted someone is posting under the name "Hari". Of course it is a free world and "Hari" is God's name :-) and I am happy, but if the intent is to post "pro SB material" and mislead others into thinking that I am posting that, well, sadly it wouldn't succeed as I doubt if there is anyone in the world who will believe that I can post pro SB material.

Thanks,

Hari Sampath

MarsWalker108 767

07-23-2001 05:59 PM

Edited by author 07-23-2001 06:01 PM

Dear All devotees, ex - devotees and other interested parties,

Some of you may receive inspiration from the following quote.

In the Hindu Scriptures it is written:

"One should forgive, under any injury...

By forgiveness the Universe is held together

Forgiveness it is the might of the mighty; forgiveness

is quiet of mind. Forgiveness and gentleness

are the qualities of the Self - possessed;

They represent eternal virtue." Love, MarsWalker108

George at Sunrise 766

07-23-2001 05:13 PM

Anthony, your post #658 is wonderful. It covers so many important points.

We'll have to find a place for it on the Sunrise site. I think we'll reference it from the "Inner Planes" page and maybe one or two other pages as well.

Glen Meloy 765

07-23-2001 01:58 PM

Well, well, well......What do we have here? Someone who calls himself.....

Lurk Recorder

The first person I ever heard use that term was Bon Giovanni when he was involved in Sai Net.

Whoever you are, here is mty response to your message # 703

>Will the real 15 year old boy please stand up!!!

>The truth is that the 15 year old boy is a lier. When he >realized how much trouble and attention his story >caused he recanted, and went into hiding.

Glen Meloy >is a congenital lier, who has collected a following of

>hysterical frigid women (ball snippers to use the >american slang).

You seem to allege that you know me. And who are these hysterical women you allege to be "ball snippers"

You strut behind your annonymity. Why don't you come out in the open and reveal yourself?

>I want to see these fictional BOYS stand up and speak >for themselves using their REAL NAMES and email >addresses so we can put them under oath in an

>interlocutary, and hear in their own words, just what >they have to say (if anything). My understanding is that >the 15 year old boy is a homosexual who has had >experiences with even younger boys since an early >age. THAT is why he refuses to speak!

The only persons that needs to be out under oath in these dealings is the molester in Puttaparthi and creatures like yourself .

Where is your proof of these outrageous charges about this boy??

Who gave you that understanding?

Name Names, I dare you!.

>Terrie, Anthony, Crock of Bull, et-al, you are playing >with lightning, and sure to get burned up. You're too >simple minded and downright stupid to comprehend >the extreme raw POWER, that you have chosen to >

>attack.

You sure are big on name calling and making threats behind your cloak of annonymity.

Lurk Recorder, why don't you come out into the open as you suggested and set the example?

Terrie 764

07-23-2001 01:45 PM

Re #761: Looking over the board I see that all the pro-ssb posts have NOT been removed. There are posts on the board from "Hari," Sarf and Saishoot.

These are pro-sai people.

I suspect that only the "nonsense" posts have been removed, made by alias posters from the Yahoo boards. These people (or one person posting under various names) make no attempt to carry on discussions. Their posts merely spam the boards.

Anthony, it would be helpful if you'd post again the purpose of this board.

Thanks,

Terrie

Glen Meloy 763

07-23-2001 01:33 PM

Dear Yahoo poster aka Birdrights, where did you get the idea that I have any control over this or any other web site?

Please get your facts straight. I am NOT an administrator of this or any other site.

And Please answer my questions posted on the Yahoo site.

Terrie 762

07-23-2001 01:30 PM

Edited by author 07-23-2001 01:33 PM

Ref 754 -Sarf:

Sparrow has replied to your question in her post #749. If you want more elaboration on the subject of miracles, let me know.

I will add that Jesus lived 2000 years ago. At that time the evolutionary level of mankind was different. I believe that during that time because of the "hardness of hearts," miracles were a part of the Divine mission. The same as the tablets of Moses, which also seemed to be some kind of "miracle."

Even so, Jesus may have performed miracles only when necessary as Sparrow suggested. We don't know, however, as we weren't there. I'm sure however,that he didn't routinely "manifest" rings, watches, chains, etc.

which are cheap magician and/or astral tricks.

I only know that during this historical period Yogananda said that God would not use miracles. Mary Summer Rain also says that miracles are not part of the modern spiritual dispensation. This is the period in history when we're supposed to be using our own will power and discrimination and looking for the answers WITHIN.

Yogananda did perform miracles at the beginning of his work in the west, but came to believe that a small group of dedicated spiritual seekers was far more valuable than crowds of followers. His early miracles as well as the packed halls of people who went to hear him are on record. There are photographs, testimonies, etc. all in print for anyone who wants to read about Y's early work.

Cock & Bull 760

07-23-2001 10:44 AM

In his Gurupurnima discourse on 3 July 1993, Raju disclosed how jealousy among the devotees was at the root of the murder attempt and how the incident took place. The Sai organization advised its units not to pay attention to newspaper reports and discuss about it perhaps because the investigations were going on.

That was way back in 6 June 1993 and still investigation is going on on on on on on on......Its no wonder India is unable to hold sway in the world because when the country sacrifices JUSTICE for people like Raju ,How can the country prosper??Look at United States Of America,despite its diversity,it maintains a superb Legal system,where JUSTICE IS EQUAL FOR ALL.Even the Presidents daughter was not spared and had to pay for her behaviour.Thats Justice,and the law enforcement agencies do their job.

Cock & Bull 759

07-23-2001 10:34 AM

Dear Saisooth

Thanks for letting us know Raju is alive and kicking.The only people who are on high pedestal is Raju devotees-the sheer arrogance and the deep rooted sense of superiority displayed is totally un-becoming.But then why to blame the devotees when Raju himself speaks ,acts in an arrogant manner.

Quote Raju"No one is qualified to point a finger at my purity. How can anyone recognize the grandeur of my divine purity? Only an intelligent person can recognize another's intelligence. How can a fool recognize intelligence?" UnQuote.

Anthony 758

07-23-2001 03:57 AM

Sarf

Ref 714

I think you will find many millions of people on Earth are aware of existence beyond that which we see with our physical eyes. However, there is a difference between a true higher spiritual existence and the level you have spoken of, which is regarded as the Astral plane. This is the world of psychic phenomina, astral travel, oiuja board, ghosts, various battles, scenarios, voices in the head, schitzophrenia, etc. This is the world of 'sb'! Hitler, etc.

The higher levels contain true compassion and healing and other spiritual gifts. This is where we see the miracles of Jesus and other such figures.

This is not where we see the miracles of 'sb' .

I agree with Terries comments in 722.

I know you are an avid devotee and don't want to hear these things, but you could decide sometime to really look! You ask why would someone evil do good deeds? To me it is obvious. How else do you get nice people to follow you?

Everyone who is trying to mislead the public - be it a sect, politician, hitler, multi national companies, chemical/drug companies, etc. will spout out lots of truth to get people on side. Who would ever follow someone that says 'Hi, here is a load of lies.' Of course they do good acts and say right things. They know people aren't so stupid as to follow them unless thery appear to be doing something good.

By the way, I would check into the apparent good works of 'sb' Lots of stories around about the hospital and water supply, etc.

Barry

I guess you refer to Glen Molloy. Sorry, it is not Glen running this board.

The reason other realms are being spoken of is because many of us believe that 'sb' doesn't just molest young boys. That is what is going on in the physical world and the expose of it will bring about his downfall.

However, as many ex devotees have experienced, there is a lot of difficulty involved in getting away from the guy. Some of us believe that this is because he maintains a strong energy hold on his devotees. It is just another view, you don't have to agree with it, but we feel that if it isn't addressed then we are not giving out the whole truth. It is the truth that can help free people from this guy and not go have to go through years of torment as he continues to invade their lives and their dreams. It is a a psychic connection he maintains and this needs to be broken to get free of him.

I also think you will find that the subject you 'only mention to a few people' is now quite widespread across the planet. Listen newly to the subjects being discussed by the average guy in the street. I think you will be surrprised how the consciousness has changed. Many things that were thought to be crazy a few years ago, are now widely covered and aceptable.

Oprah Winfrey alone has covered tons of it.

Shakti (re 717)

Pity he doesn't say 'follow God'. But then that wouldn't work would it!! So he has has to say 'follow me'.

Pittard, Barry 757

07-23-2001 01:42 AM

Glen,

If there's more than a tiny bit of this sort of nonsense, the Expose will have more than its share of credibility problems.

When I myself mention alien intelligence it is hardly to anyone. What to speak of other realms. What ARE these people doing?

Barry

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Cock & Bull 756

07-23-2001 01:25 AM

Dear Saisooth

Dear Questor

Karma is a theory in the Hindu philosphy and its applicable universally to all living beings.Even Raju is affected by Karma,but then he cares 2 hoots for anythung.If you ask him about Karma,promptly he will reply he is KARMA or HE IS THE ONE WHO DECIDES KARMA FOR EVERYBEING IN THE WORLD.By being a vegetarian its believed that the karmic accumulation is of lesser degreee compared to consumption of animal meat.But then who is maintaining the plus and minus???Thats mind boggling question may be the Iskconite will have some Vedic litreature readily available.!!

Hari 755

07-23-2001 01:23 AM

Words of Warning

"God has sent into the world some entities who will punish the wicked and reward the righteous. We are prone to protest against such effects. This is very wrong. Distance your self from evil, accumulate all goodness around you. Ensure that there is no trace of evil within you. Then you need fear no punishment. The very persons intended for punishing come and protect."

( Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba, Divine discourse of November 23, 2000)

sarf 754

07-23-2001 01:14 AM

Terrie you said, and I quote "The great Yogananda has said that God would never use miracles to convince people to follow Him".

Well, Krishna and Jesus performed numerous miracles as well. How did Yogananda explain that?

What about the miracles of Lahiri Mahasaya and Babaji in Yogananda's book?

That book would have been boring without them.

Probabaly because Yogananda himself had no powers is why he said what he did. What do you think?

Questor 753

07-23-2001 12:43 AM

As for ssb improving lives, I can tell you of a few who have suffered tremendously from ssb. He has caused nothing but pain and suffering. So you say Karma is the reason? Then why cry over animals used for food?

They have karma too, right? Or is it only people?

SAISHOOT 752

07-22-2001 10:54 PM

Hi Q.T.Boarders..please learn to be humble and learn from the Ex Vatican Catholic Priest's-Mario Mazzoleni- messages posted ...you and me and with all that 'intelligence' of cocks and bulls need to come down from our high pedestals and live to learn from these great voices..of course you have the choice to a true c & b which stands for two unintelligent creations, a name rightly suits some..

SSB is still alive and kicking..

SAISHOOT 751

07-22-2001 10:42 PM

SSB EXPOSE..more

Sai Baba does everything in order to help us from any point of view physical, psychical and material point of view..will one life be sufficient to express gratitude to this Divine Doctor who gives life back..?

Approaching and meeting Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba has meant to me the discovery of a revelation which still continues'

Mario Mazzolei in 'THE MISSING LINK' S.Sarathi July 2001

SAISHOOT 750

07-22-2001 10:29 PM

Reply to Harry Sampath;

SSB EXPOSE..

Ref; 'THE MISSING LINK' by Mario Mazzoleni Sanathana Sarathi July 2001;

' ..from my studies of theology, one part was missing, which would enlighten the truth as a whole. The Western doctrine, however interesting mosaic, rich in colours and images, it may already be in itself, was yet incomplete...it needed to be completed in order to identify the subject of the whole work.

In my humble opinion, one of the purposes of Sai Baba's mission is completing that 'mosaic'....Baba is amidst us..Why ignore so great a fortune ?. Would it not be foolish to lose such an unrepeatable opportunity.?"