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pageThis document contains posts 603-678 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
Anthony 678
07-20-2001 01:29 PM
Hari
How is that other website going that you are involved in? Due soon?
Anthony 677
07-20-2001 01:21 PM
George203
Boy that 'construction worker' (image) is sure working hard on your site. Probably a good reflection of how hard you guys are working putting together this great site. Good to see it growing.
Anthony 676
07-20-2001 01:17 PM
Andries. More wisdom on the two points with your post 673. Quite right. Easy to get caught up in the significance of a cult.
Andries 675
07-20-2001 06:53 AM
Edited by author 07-20-2001 11:55 AM
A Website About Influence
The homepage
http://www.influenceatwork.com/index.html
Direct Links to Cults/NRMs
http://www.influenceatwork.com/cult.html
I would like to make two remarks about the cult/NRM links with regards to SSB org. First the link says that cults only want members that are balanced, intelligent people. Imo this statement is not valid for the SSB org in the Netherlands. There were some people who had problems but they were readily accepted. Probably they have profited quite a lot from the acceptance by the group and the teachings that SSB conveyed.
The second remark I would like to make is that the link says that cult/NRM leaders often have experience in jobs that require a lot of persuasion. Note that SSB is no exception to this rule. According to Kasturi's hagiography 'Sathyam Sivam Sundaram' (Truth, Goodness, Beauty) SSB was very succesful in selling worthless surplus stock of medicines by writing song texts for the local shopkeepers. Obviously this 'person' that calls himself Sathya had no problem in selling rubbish even before he proclaimed himself to be a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba. Kind regards, Andries
George at Sunrise 674
07-19-2001 05:27 PM
Edited by author 07-19-2001 05:31 PM
The problem with your board Anthony, is that almost EVERYTHING can go on Sunrise in the different categories. There are so many good discussions going on.
There are some new posts on http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise Open letters from Barry Pittard and Elena Hartgering (Pipeline); Conny's letter about Hislop's knowledge of the molestations and Barry's letter on leaving ssb(Public Statements); Elena points out sb's plagiarism (Red Flags); A couple of new entries on the CULT page; We will soon have a CURRENT NEWS page as well. Maybe in a day or two.
Andries 673
07-19-2001 03:59 PM
Ref 671 SSB org Cult or not?
Dear Sparrow and all,
I fully agree that the SSB org misses a lot of cult characteristics but imo the question whether a certain religious organization is a cult or not has no added value. The only 'added value' of calling a regligious org a cult is that of stigmatization. The question only leads to endless debates about definitions and characteristics. What imo is relevant is whether 1. harmful practices take place within the org and are allowed by the organization and whether 2. people are being deceived and manipulated by witholding them information. Of course deceit & manipulation are in itself a harmful practices.
Hope to hear other people's opinions
Anthony 672
07-19-2001 03:51 PM
A Sparrow
Interesting points you made re the differences of a cult. food for thought. It is certainly on other levels. That is my personal major concern.
A Sparrow 671
07-19-2001 01:52 PM
One way in which the raju org differs from other cults is that it doesn't have many of the cult characteristics. Yes, you should be a vegetarian, but no one checks up on you around meal time to see that you are. There are a lot of "supposed tos", but there's no formal pressure on you to toe the line. If you stop coming to weekly meetings; sure, you'll get a few calls from fellow members who want to know why, but it would be the same in any group. Many devotees don't even belong to centers. And then there's the issue of being "a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc etc", yet still being allowed to be a devotee. In a way this laxity is insidious and misleading. It all seems so mellow and innocent. The cultishness of raju exists more on planes other than the worldly one. The psychic grasp he has on his followers is very real whether or not they go to bhajans or retreats or even visit him in person.
Terrie 670
07-19-2001 01:27 AM
Edited by author 07-19-2001 01:28 AM
A couple of people have recommended to me a Yahoo ex-cult support group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-cult-support
I haven't yet investigated this group because it requires membership. You have to fill out a questionaire first. This is a quote from the site:
"This is a resticted mailing list and approval is only given after you have completed our questionaire and made yourself known to the moderator. You will appreciate that we want this list to be a safe place where you can speak openly and freely without concerning yourself that there are 'cult spies'looking at your every move."
This Yahoo group might be a good place for you to look, Andries....or anyone else who is having trouble cutting the ties to those dark ssb vibes.
Andries 669
07-18-2001 04:26 PM
Edited by author 07-19-2001 01:06 AM
Thanks to you all for your kind words and wise advices. Unfortunately I'm unable to profit from them now because I'm too frustrated. I have to be patient with myself. Kind regards, Andries.
Terrie 668
07-18-2001 04:23 PM
Thanks for the poem, Anthony!
Anthony 667
07-18-2001 01:24 PM
Hi Terrie,
I happened to have IF. It is probably a bit long, but what the heck! It is good.
If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you; If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or, being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master; If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with triumph and disaster And treat those two imposters just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to broken, And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch; If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run - Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
-Rudyard Kipling
Anthony 666
07-18-2001 01:21 PM
Andries
I have always felt it was quite common for people who become disillusioned with a particular religious following, to feel betrayed and be put off spiritual practises of any kind - for however long it takes them to recover and start to trust again.
I certainly felt this way. I was in a cult for quite a while,believing it to be 'the ideal way' I could help people. It did help people, but was also far too restrictive and controlling, which I finally realised. It took a lot of courage to leave (I think it always does) and it put me off all spiritual searching for quite a while. It took time to let go of the judgments. Finally, I reached an understanding that felt right for me - that things are not done 'to us', that we are not victims and in fact we create our life through the choices we make. Slowly I realised it was not sane to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' and I learned to trust again.
Hope I don't upset any devout Christians, but I tend to agree with Saishoot on his point of not taking everything written in the bible as correct. I believe the bible has been incredibly altered and much has changed to suit the controlling powers.
I also think that we take things too literally sometimes and that often things are purely symbolic.
Whether it was really said or not, my own understanding of the words 'nobody comes to the Father except thru the Christ' would mean people need an understanding of the power of the divine within themselves in order to attain enlightenment.
I see the concept of 'Christ' more as an awareness of the Divine consciousness or 'Christ consciousness' - without it really being attached to Christianity at all. Jesus was an Essene, was he not? before Christianity adopted him!! Now I really will get into trouble!!
I see the second coming of Christ not as meaning Jesus incarnating again on Earth, but as a time destined where people would make the connection to the divine within themselves and return to a Oneness with All That Is. I think I had better get away from that subject!!
I agree that there is a great similarity between people leaving 'sb' and any other cult. I happen to think that leaving 'sb' is much tougher to do a) because of the energy link he has with his devotees and b) that it is extra hard to leave 'God'!
But ex cult members can definetely help each other.
I think it would be great if people really contributed to our website with their methods of how they have dealt personally with the 'leaving' of 'sb'. That would help others so much. We had some really good ways to do this mentioned on a past message board and some of them were posted on saibabaguru board for a while.
SAISHOOT 665
07-18-2001 10:12 AM
Greetings Andries;
In reply,..Jesus never said that 'I am the way and truth and none goes to his Father except through him. This is one of many later additions by the Gospel writers. In essence..if one can believe in the Bible..then you can believe in anything including SSB.
On an another note, SSB transformed Tal Brooke to a born again Christian as he himself admits in his book and hence SSB is no false prophet.
Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. There is nothing wrong with Christ and so with his Father SSB.
Andries 664
07-18-2001 05:04 AM
Dear all,
I sincerely hope that everybody fully realizes that all of the issues that we discuss here are everything but unique for the SSB movement. It is my experience that an exchange between SSB (ex-)devotees and (ex-)members of other cults/NRMs and even other religions is very helpful. SSB is just another turd in the cesspool of cults to quote an ex-member of Eckankar. Ex-members of other cults/turds/NRMs cope with similar issues as ex-devotees of SSB.
Kind regards, Andries,
Andries 663
07-18-2001 04:21 AM
>From colleen russell <colleenmft@yahoo.com>
CULT AWARENESS & RECOVERY FORUM IN CALIFORNIA
A free Cult Awareness & Recovery Forum will be held on Saturday, August 11TH, from 2 û 4 p.m. in Mill Valley, California (about 7 miles North of San Francisco). This is for ex-Members, family members, educators, or those who have experienced an authoritarian, totalistic group or cult. It's purpose is to discuss and identify issues involving membership and events prior and subsequent to a cult, group, or relationship which has these characteristics. Please call me at my business phone: 415.383.7721 for location and questions.
Colleen Russell
Terrie 662
07-17-2001 10:59 PM
Questor, can you post the Kipling poem here if it's not too long?
Cock & Bull 661
07-17-2001 10:49 PM
When the truth about Raju dawned to me,i simply started to pray to Shirdi Sai Baba and reading Sai Sat Charitra regularly.There is a remarkable calm and peace for me now.Andries you have to work it by yourself or seek counselling instead of feeling bad.One thing i wish to assure you guy's Raju will pay dearly and rot,its the law of Karma.Shanieswar did not even spare Lord Shiva as the legend goes,what about swine Raju?
Questor 660
07-17-2001 10:04 PM
Hi Andries,
I have been studying this thing called faith. I agree with you. My own beliefs and faith in religion and people has been deconstructed too, by all of this. Though I am not a devotee or ex, I was close to someone who was. I always admired the faithful, but somehow stood on the outside looking in, because of my own experiences in various groups. I thought it a special gift to be a faithful believer. Now I think if there is a god, he is in our hearts and not an external to be regulated by any particular church or temple. I have a sense of something but no one is going to tell me who or where to go to find it.
What do we put in it's place? Real relationships with people; people who are fallible, and forgivable and real. Have you read the poem by Rudyard Kipling, "If" ?? It sort of sums up how one might survive in this crazy world. And although it is a bit cliche to some, it is worthwhile reading it. It has stood the test of time.
-Q
PS If I think of anything else better in terms of advice I will let you know. I am still thinking about this. I want to understand it more...
Andries 659
07-17-2001 09:04 PM
Ref 655, 657
Hi Terrie,
May be the reason why I lost faith in Christianity after losing faith in SSB is that I felt that my SSB experience was a kind of spiritual abuse. It is only natural that I now have distrust towards and dislike of all religion which I feel as a great loss. I'm afraid I need years to recover.
Hope to hear from you.
Andries 658
07-17-2001 08:34 PM
Edited by author 07-17-2001 08:46 PM
Re: Christianity 655,656,657
How can anyone pray to somebody who was so arrogant to say that nobody comes to the Father except thru him? Not even SSB went that far. Sorry for this off topic frustrated Christianity bashing.
May be my post 649 about transference explains why I lost faith in Christianity after my loss of faith in SSB. I have the impression that this is the case for many ex-devotees.
Hope to hear you.
Terrie 657
07-17-2001 08:11 PM
Andries, I've been wondering about why your faith in anything Christian went out the door with your faith in ssb. One thing I've noticed in myself and other devotees have mentioned also, is that the false god took over our emotional systems. It's like, when we found out the true nature of ssb, everything left with our belief. Our emotional response system seems to be destroyed.
There truly is a void for awhile. It's sort of like what happens when a person breaks up with their lover. Maybe it's a shock response. I'm not sure, and I'm also not sure how long the recovery takes. I and others have found it's best for awhile to become involved in other activities and spend more time with family and friends.
Many of us are still waiting to feel normal again. It might be that our whole brain has to be re-wired, and that takes time. All we can do in the meantime is stay involved in work, creative projects or whatever else we find interesting. Anthony, do you have any insight on what is going on with ex-devotees? Love,
Terrie
Andries 656
07-17-2001 06:03 PM
Jesus & SSB
One of the reason why I was not very impressed by Dale Beyerstein's analysis of SSB's alleged miracles was that Dale Beyerstein accused SSB of misquoting Churchill. But I thought that if you want to make a point then it was okay not to be concerned about the facts. Jesus did it too when he said that the Kingdom of God is equal to a mustard seed that would grow into the biggest tree. Well, the mustard tree is NOT the biggest tree.
So now I tend to think more that if even the facts are not correct then you don't have to take the rest very seriously. I can't think of any other reliable method that will help me to find the truth than checking out the facts first.
Another thing about Christianty that I now find unacceptable apart of the absurd and unjust claim of Jesus being the only way to God are the words that Jesus spoke to the disciple Thomas 'Blessed are the ones that don't see but believe' This is offering a reward for a lack of commonse sense and reasonable doubt. Harmful imo.
Hope to hear your opinion. Thanks.
Andries 655
07-17-2001 05:24 PM
Edited by author 07-17-2001 05:27 PM
Hi fellow ex-devotees,
I noticed that I lost faith in Jesus and the bible for some reason or another most unfortunateley too when I lost faith in SSB. I wondered do other ex-devotees have this too or where they able to maintain their prior Christian faith? And why did this happen? Or why didn't it happen? Please advise.
I tried to continue to go church but I couldn't bear it anymore. I had to walk out of the church during the service.
Thanks in advance for your answer.
Anthony 654
07-17-2001 04:07 PM
Well, all is quiet on the western front today!!
Anthony 653
07-16-2001 01:50 PM
Andries lots of wise words and good ideas (6410 I don't think there is much point trying to answer Mad Mike!
Sunrise 652
07-15-2001 10:56 PM
Edited by author 07-15-2001 10:57 PM
Questor, would it be possible for you to re-send your last hotmail message to Sunrise? It would be much easier to write a reply from Sunrise. Thanks. (If this isn't possible, we can still handle it....but it takes more time.
Andries, the same for any posts you sent to hotmail for the site. Thanks,
George
Questor 651
07-15-2001 09:38 PM
Here is the address of the website.
hpi@hindu.org
Why don't you write to them and send them all the links. I seem to recall an article --was it in the Hindu?? --regarding the allegations.
I also think beliefnet itself should be contacted.
george203-Sunrise 650
07-15-2001 07:00 PM
As of now we are activating a new mailbox for the site.
George203@hotmail.com will be cancelled and all mail to the site will go to sunrise@snowcrest.net. We are tired of 50 ads a day being dumped into the hotmail mailbox.
Andries 649
07-15-2001 05:52 PM
Edited by author 07-15-2001 05:56 PM
Ref 645 Dear Questor,
I noticed something similar when I visited Yesterday the big English language book shops in the Dutch capital. There were plenty of books in stock about all kinds of gurus/ cults/ religions/NRMs including SSB but none about the general cult-related issues. That is may be a bit out of balance imo.
But may be I just feel that way because of a phenomenon called transference after a trauma. In the case of a cult/NRM-trauma it is natural that there may be unnecessary distrust against all religious authority and even against friends. In the case of a trauma because of e.g. a robbery by a group of young men the transference is to fear all groups of young men. I have experienced both kind of traumas. I'm not an expert in psychology but I think that's the way it works. Kind regards. Andries.
george 648
07-15-2001 05:36 PM
Edited by author 07-15-2001 05:38 PM
Hanuman,
George203@hotmail.com should work. Maybe the link is broken. We'll check it on Monday. We can also pick up mail at a link address:(Mail to this address goes on the site server.) sunrise@snowcrest.net We don't currently have a fax. For any submissions, it's best to send a plain old e-mail...no attachments. When documents are transferred to html for posting on the site, word processing codes often get in the way. So try sunrise@snowcrest.net
Hanuman 647
07-15-2001 05:03 PM
Hi ! .... george203 .... I have been trying to contact you via your email "shortcut" without success .... receiving a "server not known" message .... Please advise an alternative email address and a fax no. ..... including all codes .... for submission of new material ..... Best regards .... Hanuman
Andries 646
07-15-2001 03:57 PM
Ref 644 Dear Mad Mike,
Please re-read the letter from Barry Pittard #305 posted by Marswalker about not producing first hand stories. And also post # 595 by me.
About karmic suicide please read # 522 by me.
If you ever come to the conclusion that SSB is not the avatar after all then please don't be so pride not to ask for help if you need it.
If you truly believed and tried to follow SSB's teachings then you would not call anybody an Anti Christ. SSB said that everybody is good inside. The rind of an orange may be bitter caused by prejudice, passions etc but the inside is always sweet because God's love is inside every being. Kind regards, Andries.
Questor 645
07-15-2001 09:54 AM
Hi All; I just wandered over to the Beliefnet site which is aolBeliefnet.com. They have a section regarding religion in the news, and they had ONLY good articles about baba. I do see that they publish articles that are critical and thoughtful, why don't they have anything about this controversy? They should have links to the INDIA TODAY article on their Hinduism site. It is quite appropriate. Of course there are all the other articles that also could be linked. Imagine, there is a section on religion and morality at this site!!!
How about it???????
Anyone else notice this???
07-15-2001 12:21 AM
Andrias and Questor, there is so much to answer in your posts, but I can't reply tonight. Questor, thanks for the reminder about Michelle. We probably do have to be very careful.
Andries 641
07-14-2001 05:57 PM
Re: 'Filling up the Void' George's post # 631
Dear George & Questor and all,
I think it is a great idea for stories about 'Filling up the Void' but please don't forget that people first go through phases as denial, shock, emotional traumas and even sometimes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The latter is an almost worst case scenario. Worst case is suicide which is not very sensible because it's a rather permanent 'solution' for a temporary problem imo. I agree with Questor in her post 640 that some people may need counseling or a psychiatirst/therapist. It may be difficult to find a competent therapist that gets along well with the patient and that is familiar with leaving cult/NRM trauma.
It may sound unbelievable but I have the impression that the sexual abuse (in the form of a person they know and trust) has to come to the home of the ardent devotees almost before they are able to believe it. Building your whole life around an extreme believe is of course everything but unique for SSB devotees. I guess that Christians would be equally shocked and traumatized if suddenly a scripture was found that proved that Jesus was fake and a sexual pervert.
Personally I am not ready for filling up the void. Losing my faith felt exactly as in the dream of the Californian teacher on http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/myprophecy.htm
By the way what are the ex-devotees going to do when SSB dies prematurely? Are we going back to our centers with 30 copies of Frank Morales' letters, 'The Magic Lamp', Mrs Jan Groenveld's webpages e.g. 'It Hurts' & 'Profile of a Sociopath' ? May be I have too much empathy but I feel miserable when I think of what would happen. Anyway if SSB dies prematurely please send me an email immediately.
Questor you wrote 'persons stricken with fear that something terrible will happen if they leave the organization.' Yes, I know some people who have big problems with it but for me as I wrote in post 569 it was not that important. Losing my faith was far worse.
By far the best thing that could happen imo is that SSB would go to court because then everything would go more gradually.
See more about leaving a cult/NRM Mrs Jan Groenveld's website http://caic.org.au/general/postcult.htm
Here is Steve Hassan's discussion site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomofmind
Kind regards, Andries
Questor 640
07-14-2001 09:43 AM
Some comments:
1. Terrie: Yes I do believe in a higher power.
2. Anyone responding to the Salon reporter, Michelle? If so, I advise you to check her credentials and speak to her on the phone, etc. (In puttaparti????hmmmm...)
3. There is definitely an aspect of delusion to the extreme belief of some devotees. This means they have very little to look forward to if they leave the guru. SSB as an organization has provided them with their "life". I will be interested in your suggestions as to what there is after ssb.
I believe some of these people, perhaps a small percentage, will need even psychiatric help. I say this with all due respect to all ex-devotees. That is because there is a large spectrum of different kinds of folks that is involved in this organization from the very strong, high functioning but faithful individuals, to the very dependent, fearful, and needy. I believe it is the most balanced, emotionally, that are able to stand back and examine this whole situation, and really examine it, and who are departing from it. So I think all those who are examining their involvement should consider themselves as those most capable of helping others in a patient and kind way.
The delusion may be supported by persons with serious dependency issues, but also by persons stricken with fear that something terrible will happen if they leave the organization. I wonder if this strikes a cord with any of the ex-devotees. This would go along with the phenomenon of being abused, either emotionally or physically, by a mate, parents, or other relationship where abuse is used to control.
Andries, your comments are great. I really appreciate them.
Hopefully this will spark some discussion regarding aspects of ssb's influence. I think it goes way beyond just the sexual abuse of boys and young men. -Q
Andries 639
07-14-2001 03:28 AM
Ref 635,636,637
Dear Terrie, Sparrow (aka Chimney),
It should work now again. I was not aware that I had to empty my trash folder too. Sorry for the inconvencience caused. Please resend your mail to me. email AndriesKrugersDagneaux@hetnet.nl
Kind regards, Andries K.D.
Terrie 637
07-14-2001 02:01 AM
Andries, the mystery is solved! The message that came back with the last e-mail I sent you said that your mailbox was FULL!! Better tone down that letter writing!
A Sparrow 636
07-14-2001 01:33 AM
Andries ... Ditto to what Terrie just said.
... Sparrow (aka Chimney; ha ha!)
Terrie 635
07-14-2001 12:58 AM
Andries, every time I try to send you an e-mail, it comes back to my mailbox marked "undeliverable." There are three of them now. Love,
Terrie
George203 634
07-13-2001 10:06 PM
There are a number of new articles posted on the site now. Andries, you have three articles. If anyone has been reading this board regularly and was familiar with Keenan's site, then most of the new entries will be familiar. We're still missing quite a bit from Keenan's site.
We've been expecting a new site from Hari Sampath, who said he had most (or all) of the articles from saibabaguru.com http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Anthony 633
07-13-2001 02:27 AM
Sorry Andries. I meant 626. As it was only one message away from it, I didn't bother making the connection. I 'assumed'! but as someone once told me 'ass-u-mi-ng' things makes an 'ass out of u and me'.
George 203 GREAT idea on 'Filling the Void' section.
A Sparrow 632
07-13-2001 12:16 AM
the characteristics of a sociopathic cult leader in the article that Andries posted in post #615 certainly fit sn raju to a T!
George203 631
07-12-2001 07:18 PM
In order to help ex-devotees, we are going to have a page on "Filling the Void" that's left when a devotee becomes an ex-devotee. Please, everyone, let us know your personal way of coping when you became an ex-devotee of ssb.
There will be maybe 15 new articles (some from Keenan's site) going up tomorrow (Friday). We've lost the sources for some of these articles, so if you have time, check and see if you recognize an article and know its origin. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Thank you.
George
Andries 630
07-12-2001 04:15 PM
Dear all,
The Dutch site is being made bilingual. There are already many English articles on the site but not very well organized yet.
http://www.exbaba.nl Press English and then press materials
Kind regards, Andries
Andries 629
michelle 627
07-12-2001 09:27 AM
Hello,
I'm an American journalist working on an article about Sai Baba for Salon Magazine. I recently spent a week in Puttaparthi talking to Sai devotees, and am now eager to get the other side of the story. I especially need to speak with people who have been victims of sexual abuse by Sai Baba; I've heard countless stories second-hand but need first-hand sources if I'm to publicize these charges. As I'm currently in India, the best way to get in touch with me is via email at michellehelene@yahoo.com. Thank you,
Michelle Goldberg
Andries 626
07-12-2001 03:35 AM
Edited by author 07-12-2001 03:41 AM
General request to include a subject or references to a previous message nr.
Dear All,
When writing on this messageboard could you please write to what previous message you refer (e.g. 145, 612 or 615) or start with a subject. It takes a little more effort but I think it will worth it as it will make this board easier to read. Thanks in advance. Kind regards, Andries
Anthony 625
07-12-2001 03:01 AM
Andries
Spiritual qualities are being mirrored to us by everyone around us all the time. In particular those qualities we have not yet recognised. Sometimes it takes a thousand situations before we get it, sometimes only once. These qualities can be triggered at any time - always only when we are ready to learn. Just as many people will have gained compassion from watching a suffering child, a sick neighbour, an animal in distress, etc - so also will many have gained from words said by other people, including 'sb'. We attract whatever it is we need in our life and the event or person that shows us is merely the catylyst for this. All are helping each other learn - or so I believe.
Anthony 624
07-12-2001 02:55 AM
I have no idea what Seva is talking about actually. Maybe just me! I received no such message from Quicktopic and don't know what all this is about assumed names!
Andries 623
07-11-2001 05:30 PM
Thank you dear Sai Baba for giving me compassion. Compassion for people who suffer from an emotional trauma. You gave me one. Thanks.
Anthony 622
07-11-2001 01:46 PM
Andries
Good point you have made. It can also help to say "I have heard..(so and so)from someone I really trust. I wonder if there is any truth in it. What do you think?" rather than come out with definite statements.
Andries 621
07-11-2001 04:30 AM
Edited by author 07-11-2001 04:31 AM
Ref 618 and 615
Hi Tony,
Thanks, I could hardly imagine being the first one to post the 'Profile of a Sociopath'
Andries 620
07-11-2001 03:54 AM
Edited by author 07-11-2001 04:13 AM
How To Tell Devotees The Bad News?
One of the first things I learned during my study psychology at the university that I never finished was that people will not accept an other opinion at all if it differs to much from their current one. The example was used of people who thought that alcohol was good for your health. If somebody tells them that alcohol is very bad for their health then they will not accept it at all. However if somebody tells them that alcohol may not always be good for your health then they will much easier accept the message.
I have the strong impression that some ex-devotees and never-devotees forget this psychological law. They simply want to push the whole horrifying story at once to devotees. That simply doesn't work. They will simply delete the email, throw away the letter, go to another URL and dismiss all the stories as slander. My advice is to be patient, friendly, compassionate and diplomatic towards devotees. Kind regards, Andries
Tony O'Clery 618
07-10-2001 07:36 PM
I seem to remember posting that piece of Andries's some time ago. I got it from this cult survivor place in Australia. Jan Groenveld <jan.groenveld@uq.net.au>
I think I posted it with all the credits too. You can check with Jan if you wish..........She's very pleasant....Tony.
George203 617
07-10-2001 03:22 PM
Thank you, Andries, for two more great articles for the site. We needed a good article for "Why I am still a Devotee" and the sociopath article is wonderful. These will show up on the site in a few days.
Tony O'Clery 616
07-10-2001 03:17 PM
Eunuch day was just celebrated in India, and it is reported in the press, that many of them are not eunuchs but transexuals and hermaphrodites. So it is not crazy to take notice when transexual devotees say that their guru is a hermaphrodite----sb that is.
As far as anal intercourse is concerned, it is mentioned in some of the reports somewhere, besides the boy with the torn anus. Anyway sexual behaviour usually progresses to its logical conclusion. It is more ridiculous to believe he does fellatio without anal penetration than to believe otherwise. Many are not going to shout it from the rooftops either........
Andries 615
07-10-2001 12:02 PM
Edited by author 07-10-2001 12:08 PM
Avatar or Sociopath? I'm trying to find out from what book this description comes. Kind regards, Andries
(Post too long to leave up here. Needs to be on website.
Anthony 613
07-10-2001 02:17 AM
Thanks Andries
A very good point you made is the one regarding why doesn't 'sb' publically say he personally helps young men activate their kundalini energy by him doing .......etc.etc.If it is all so spiritual (ha!) why isn't it included in his speeches. Of course, translating articles in a massive job and I quite understand your comments re this. Totally OK. You are helping heaps anyway.
A Sparrow 612
07-09-2001 11:48 PM
Andries, your idea is a good one.
Let's remember one thing. The "annointments" are merely the tip of the iceberg. At one time I might even have been convinced that there was a good reason for them if it were not for the other things, such as the demands for oral sex to be performed on himself. No way could that make the other fellow's kundalini rise! What a joke!
Andries 611
07-09-2001 11:47 PM
Edited by author 07-09-2001 11:50 PM
Here are 53 reasons that I have heard to remain a devotee. Some of them were my own thoughts that I marked with '*'. I sincerely hope that everybody can understand after reading this list that it can be an ardous task emotionally and intellectually to break with SSB and the SSB organization. Besides the list may give some insight into the psyche of a devotee. Kind regards, Andries
1. The allegations are all lies by people who were for some reason or another frustrated about SSB or simply bribed.* 2. It's a test of faith. Now you have to stand strong and you will be rewarded.* 3. Somebody who can do miracles can't be a sinner. Ramakrishna whom I respect highly said this. * 4. The world is so perverted. People even see impure things in a pure person. * 5. It's just Kundalini Awakening. See also Ram Das Awle's website 'a clear view on sex' for other reasons why he does those things. * 6. Some alleged miracles may be sleight of hand but so what if a few are fake. Many real miracles remain that can't be explained rationally. And I know people that I trust have experienced them. Even some non-devotees have experienced miracles and some ex-devotees don't deny sometimes the miracles. *
7. Every avatar has his enemies. This must be the case as there can be no play without a villain as Ramakrishna wrote with regards to life of Chaitanya.* 8. I don't want to lose all my friends.
9. God can't be so cruel to allow that millions of devotees are deceived so long. If there is a loving God he wouldn't have allowed that this deceit would have affected so many good people for such a long time with regards to this important subject. As I believe in a loving God SSB can't be a fraud. This is a so called reductio ad absurdam proof. * 10. I believe in the concept of avatara. SSB looks so real. If he is not for real then what other avataras were for real? If SSB is no avatara then all the other must be fake too. As I don't believe that this is case then SSB must be real too. Another reductio ad absurdam proof.*
11. I trust my own experiences with SSB and the SSB org. They are good. So I don't have to listen to other people's bad experiences. * 12. Where are all the new victims? I was told that many, many would pop up. But I hardly hear of any new ones under their real names.
13. Why give up a guru that clearly leads you to God? That's is just insane. *
14. The good things of SSB i.e. the spiritual instruction and the seva projects that he promotes outweigh by far the bad things that he may or may not have done. * 15. One knows a prophet his fruits according to the Bible. The fruits i.e. the seva projects by the SSB org, the Eduction in Human Values and the spiritual instructions are good so the prophet must be good too.* 16. Just after the crucifixion Jesus disciples were confused too. Just wait for the glorious comeback of the avatar. Present controversy are just passing clouds. * 17. This story about SSB being a hermaphrodite is just too crazy. So the rest must be untrue too. 18. There are quite a lot of intelligent and even wise persons in the SSB organization. I have met them personally. They all can't have been fooled too.* 19. I experienced such love in the ashram and in the SSB org. So SSB can't be bad. * 20. There are people even non-devotees who have seen a golden aura around SSB. This is a traditional symbol of holiness in Catholicism.*
21. SSB has helped me so much during difficult times. Why give up your only lasting, true friend? * 22. I have been in the SSB org so long and I know so many people and I don't know any victim. 22. Somebody who can write such beautiful discourse simply can't be bad. Such discrepancy in one person is just psychologically impossible. * 24. SSB saved my life when I prayed to him. 25. SSB gave me the perfect spiritual advice in a dream at a time when I most needed it and had prayed very much. * 26. It must be the will of God with SSB as his direct instrument that some devotees leave SSB. * 27. It is SSB's intention that devotees turn away from his form and worship the Formless instead. Because devotees are so intensely attached to the form of SSB it can only be done in a way that will create stong dislike of SSB. Otherwise it would not possible. That's why he does all this perverse sexual acts. * 28. I will not allow my beautiful, precious faith to be taken away by those frustrated ex-devotees who want to contaminate others with their frustration. I have the strong impression that they are not interested in doing seva or in religion, let alone doing sadhana. Besides they keep trying to push their message to me and other devotees even in improper ways. We, SSB devotees, don't proselytize. And take a look at the vulgar language in those discusion clubs. It is very clear who are the good guys and who the bad guys. If those ex-devotees don't believe anymore then that's their problem but don't bother me or the SSB org with it. Just go, go, go and keep quiet. * 29. David Bailey and Conny Larsson are pedophiles themselves who want to distract attention from their own crimes. 30. Don't give a guru before you have found a better one. And you haven't found a better one yet. *
31. The national organizations outside India don't do anything wrong so why bother about what happens in India. I'm a member of the national organization. Not a member of the Indian organization.* 32. I don't care about the allegations. The teachings and the bhajans help me in my life. Why bother about the allegations? * 33. I'm confident that the organization will investigate all the allegations themselves internally. Just be patient. 34. I don't think that those ex-devotees have become happier when they lost their faith. I would rather keep my faith and be happy. * 35. He has predicted all the calumny in the letter to his brother in 1947. A popular Indian guru naturally has a lot of enemies. A great tree attracts the wind. * 36. A disciple doesn't need to doubt the authenticity guru. In the same way as a child doesn't need to ask whether his mother is really his mother. And didn't SSB said that he is mother and father and even more? His love is like 1000 mothers. * 37. Doubt is ceaseless torture as SSB said so you should suppress all your doubts. Doubt will only make you unhappy. * 38. I felt such love in the interview room when I was in SSB's presence. 39. A good friend had the feeling that 'All was God after the interview'. Only a a true Saint can convey this feeling. * 40. I had an intense divinely inspired dream in which SSB said to me that the allegations were not true.
41. I have a very good contact with God through my inner voice. My inner voice told me that all the allegations were not true. 42. I have alrady tested the guru when I accepted him. You should stick to your decision once you have made one. Similar to why it may not be good to reconsider your marriage. * 43. Have you seen the devotion of the locals in Puttaparthi? I have heard that they had all physically followed SSB once recently. They wouldn't do so if they believed that SSB weren't genuine. And who knows better than the locals? 44. If I leave who will be doing all the good work i.e. seva. If I leave this may stop too. And that would be a big shame. * 45. Some people trust me that I have good reason for what I do so if I leave I will upset other people and I don't want that.* 46. One should trust the innernet (introspection, prayer and meditation) for religion. Not the internet. Anyone can open a web page and write all vulgar rubbish. 47. Jesus said that one should seek the Kingdom of God first. I have clearly done that so I must have come closer to God too. So SSB must be real. It would be very unfair of God if SSB were not real after doing so much effort and sacrifice. * 48. I have thought longer and deepers about religion than my family members. So it would be very strange if they were right and I was wrong. * 49. If the allegations are true then I don't want to live anymore because then the world is so strange. And I want to continue living. So it can be true. 50. This is just similar to those sick people who wrote 'The Satanic Verses', 'Kali's Child' and 'The Last Temptation of Christ'. Those people are moths that eat both the cloth of an expensive sari as well a very cheap cloth. I.e. they criticize everything regardless whether it is precious or not. *
51. I feel so guilty and unthankful when I doubt SSB. He has given me so much. 52. Of course SSB doesn't do any sexual acts. Please re-read what he has said about lust. So he can't have possibly commited any sexual acts. 53. SSB is God. He knows what He is doing.
Terrie 610
07-09-2001 10:21 PM
Tony, are there known cases of penetration besides the report connected to Dr. Bhatia re: the 7 year old??
George203 609
07-09-2001 08:27 PM
Edited by author 07-09-2001 08:29 PM
Reconstruction of the expose' site continues: There are new entries on 4 pages: STORIES, RED FLAGS, DISCUSSION (from the boards), and PUBLIC (resignations) http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Tony O'Clery 608
07-09-2001 03:42 PM
There is not only spurious K annointments there is also fellatio and anal penetration. V/V. Perhaps that is a more advance K awakening technique?????????/
George203 607
07-09-2001 03:23 PM
Andries,your post on Questions to Devotees is really helpful. We want to put it on the site "International Pipeline" page, which is all about communication. We'll give a link to this board for replies. Please post here if you object.
Andries 606
07-09-2001 02:45 PM
QUESTIONS TO DEVOTEES
I guess all devotees admit by now that the anointments on male private parts and the touchings of the crotch by SSB really take place. But of course devotees deny the sexual molestation. I can hardly blame the devotees because it is emotionally very difficult to lose your faith in SSB and admit that you have been deceived. Many ex-devotees probably can confirm that this is not easy. Besides everything takes place behind closed curtains. One has to experience it yourself almost in order to believe it.
To those devotees, if there are any who read this site, who admit that the anointments take place I have some questions. Not because I want to hurt their feelings but imo it is better to see the truth now than in one or ten years. I'm not just a frustrated person who wants to contaminate others with my frustration.
Why hasn't SSB explained in a public discourse why he anoints those young men? Some devotees say that he doesn't explain this because this will cause a stir. But let me tell you that he has caused a very big stir already that would have been less big if he had given a public explanation. And even if he will explain it in future is there an acceptable reason why he has waited so long? Is SSB aware of the confusion, the sorrow and even emotional traumas he has caused by his suspicious behavior? Not only to some of the young men who received this treatment but also to some devotees like me who believed these young men's testimonies and hence couldn't continue believing in SSB anymore although they wanted it so badly. Is this alleged kundalini awakening really worth it?
Another possibility. If these anointments are considered a test of faith, a way to weed devotees out, aren't there better, less painful ways, to do that e.g. by making strict demands with regards to the devotees' behavior, seva and sadhana ?
Concerning the sorrow SSB has caused by his behavior. Is sorrow conducive to sprititual progress? Is it easy to do your sadhana when you're sad? Well, I find it very hard. I remember that SSB gave the advice to a sadhaka in the booklet Sandeha Nivarini never to suffer from sorrow because it will be an impediment to sadhana. I know from my own experiences that SSB wrote the truth.
So my main question is why does a guru who by definition claims to lead people to God cause a big obstacle for his devotees to do sadhana by his own behavior ?
Devotees' answers to these questions can be discussed here on quicktopic if Anthony agrees. A sound debate about important issues should not be evaded imo. Of course the timing should be right.
With much love and understanding, Andries
Terrie 605
07-09-2001 01:20 PM
Questor, "system" isn't the right word. We're really talking about universal PRINCIPLES. We'd agree on many of them, I'm sure. Love,
Terrie
Terrie 604
07-09-2001 12:22 AM
Edited by author 07-09-2001 12:24 AM
Sorry, I forgot to give the source of the quote by Yogananda. It's from A WORLD IN TRANSITIION (Self Realization Fellowship, 1999) from the chapter "The Need for Universal Religious Principles," p. 103.
As an ex-devotee, I'm finding this book very inspiring and helpful. I've just started to read it, but flipped open to this particular page. I had been wondering about how as a former devotee, my "intuition" went wrong so that I chose a false god over the real one.
But then I remembered that when there is a feeling of peace and calm, that's one indication of the right path. With the false god, most of us felt "Love," which was really just an intense shot of shakti. Not calming at all. More like the roller coaster of being in love.
Terrie 603
07-09-2001 12:14 AM
Questor, do you believe there is a God (or Goddess)?? Meaning a universal Divine force that is at the core of everyone's being and omnipresent throughout the universe...and beyond?