to links pageThis document contains posts 501-600 from the August 2001 Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
09-11-2001 11:36 AM
Ref #595, 596
The entire ex-student list has been removed from the board.
599
offend mother 598
09-11-2001 09:41 AM
who posted lists?should list of student post information as Olery request? it for student to provide the evidence? It should come by people who post names, very bad to post names and not fact. you come to India, people have long knives.
wondering 597 09-11-2001 09:12 AM
Edited by author 09-11-2001 09:33 AM
I read the list of victims posted by the exsaidevotees. In this are 2 names : G.V. Ravishankar and G.V. Sanjay. If I am right(correct me someone), these are the sons of Sri G.V. Subba Rao,who is a very long time devotee residing in PN with his family and one of 4 sons. Very, very, close to Sathya Sai, the whole family. G.V. Subba Rao is a very well-known devotee, who translates many of the Discourses and also gives talks at the EHV building. He was a former UN official and is also the son of late Sri Gandikota V. Subramanya Sastry who formulated the Sai Gayatri.
What is astounding is to find the 2 names on this list. My question: Do these two people know that their names are on the list? Two of the G.V. brothers run the website 'Sai Darshan'from New jersey(I believe).One of them is Ravishankar. Rather confused and only trying to verify facts. I agree with Sampath's pointer that caution needs to be exercised with regard to posting a list of this kind without any verification or substantiation.
ThanksP.S. Those who compiled the list should confirm that they got the permission of those people who are on the list to post their names.
arun kumar tiwari 596 09-11-2001 08:24 AM
Edited by author 09-11-2001 08:25 AM
this is to request that my name be deleted from the list displayed in your website. I have no comments about anyone else but I feel its only fair that people are asked before you display their names on your website. This is a basic human right and this kind of behavior alienates dispassionate critics of your effort. I agree with Hari Sampath on this limited issue.
arun kumar tiwari 595 09-11-2001 08:14 AM
I object to the insertion of my name without regard to my rights ......I have not been ever molesteted by the person in question. I request that My name be deleted from the board.
Terrie 594 09-11-2001 02:16 AM
Beth, the QT boards are for discussions. The Sites are more like libraries with articles and books, but not for discussions unless you link to a QT or Yahoo board from the sites. Hari's site is http://www.sathyasaivictims.com. Then there is Sunrise: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise There are lots of other sites, but these are the two main U.S. expose' sites.
Beth 593 09-11-2001 02:13 AM
Sparrow says : <<Someone asked a while back what the word "puerile" means. It means immature; childish>>
I'm not sure this was the word but it was in reference to Tony's comment on the censorship on this board. Tony commented that the censorship on this board has a puerile tone...or something like that.
I get frustrated with the censorship in this board also. We can't much have a debate here if so much is removed. I agree with a lot of the removal, but there are other posts that I think should remain.
Terrie 592 09-11-2001 02:10 AM
Dr. Siva, here is the quote you requested. It's on page 439 of GOD TALKS WITH ARJUNA: THE BHAGAVAD GITA in a paragraph titled, "The Nature of an Avatar." (SRF 1995)
"The question is: Can God Himself ever incarnate as a human being? To say that God can NOT do a certain thing is to limit Him. But there are so many things that God can do, yet does not do--at least not as human beings expect of Him. God had never been known to have taken a human form called "God" and dwelt in it among men.
("Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God." Jesus said, to distinguish himself, an avatar, from God the Father, the Absolute, the Formless.)
"The Lord has condescended many times, however, to manifest Himself through the incarnation of a fully liberated being, who once an ordinary human being, has become a true "reflection" or "son of God...."
This quote is one paragraph in the book, but I broke it up for easy reading on QT.)
There is more to this quote, but Tony is sure to tell me that this board isn't about Yogananda. You see, Dr. Siva, I was a devotee for more than 25 years, and that is the exact same argument I used to let people know that SB was totally superior to all other avatars: "He is GOD, and cannot be compared to any other son of God or avatar that has ever walked the earth." This was my firm belief.
But...as so many are saying so often now: God does not molest and rape children. Yes, the expose' changed my belief completely. And I do find a great deal of comfort in the writings of Yogananda and in the practice of his meditation techniques.
Beth 591 09-11-2001 01:59 AM
oh...ok...I think I see, Hari's site is saivictims.comBeth 590 09-11-2001 01:57 AM Sparrow and Terrie...It is amazing to me also that such literal answers pop out at me when I am least expecting them. I just had to share that one. That was a winner !! and I hope Hari and the other "guys" (especially) take heed to the advice. i think they are being very careful anyway.
Sparrow...the tarot is more difficult for me to get answers from...but you definitely got a clear "sign" too!
Please tell me, which site is Hari's? This is Anthony Thomas' site right? and the other one is Suresh's site. so where is Hari's.
Terrie 589 09-11-2001 01:53 AM
Hari, I like and admire your site. I think it's fine if you have certain restrictions. I didn't mean my post as a criticism of saivictims.
Dr. Siva, I have found the quote, but it's a rather long one. I found another quote that is even better, but shorter. I'll post these two quotes in two messages.
"So God as a spiritual dictator will never use force, nor appear to the world and proclaim: "I am the Lord of the Universe." It is only when your soul will call to God and your heart will melt with love for Him that you will know Him." Journey to Self-Realization, SRF (1997) p. 219. (sub titled: Collected talks and essays, Vol 3)
Hari Sampath 588 09-11-2001 01:00 AM
Ref Msg 583 : To Terrie :It is not as if I do not want to post experiences from all ex devotees on our site. I am well aware that there are a variety of experiences by former followers, and I am most interested in reading them, and I certainly believe in a lot of those inner experieces ( while a devotee and after leaving SB too), and I respect them a lot.
It must be understood that I have a certain purpose in having our site http://www.sathyasaivictims.com
I know fully well that the Sunrise site, the Dutch Site, the scandinavian site www.saibabaexpose.com as well as Paul Holbach's site ( an excellent site), are all playing a major role in the expose of SB.
Even these QT boards are playing a major role, as are the yahoo boards.
We have a certain purpose, and have chosen to restrict ourselves to some kind of issues. I am just clarifying this so there is no misunderstanding at all that we carry certain messages, and we don't carry others.
Thank you,Hari SampathTerrie 587 09-11-2001 12:56 AM
Welcome back, Sparrow! You disappear too much from the board! I have to disappear now as you-know-who wants the modem line.
A Sparrow 586 09-11-2001 12:51 AM
Wow, Beth! Incredible answer from the I Ching! One time I asked the Runes to describe sb. I forget the name of the stone I pulled out (I use the method of just picking one stone), but it was the one that (according to my book) describes the Norse God Loki ... the god of mischief who is roughly equivelent to the Christian Satan. Another time (when a devotee) I asked the Tarot for one card that best described him. I jumbled and shuffled and mixed the cards real well and picked one card. Would you believe ... I picked the Devil. I repeated the process 2 more times and got the Devil both those times too. What are the chances?
Who knows? Someone else could do the same thing and get an entirely different answer. It's interesting, though.
Terrie 585 09-11-2001 12:47 AM
Edited by author 09-11-2001 12:53 AM
Dr. Siva, the references you requested are here:
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Iamgod.htmAfter you read that article, we can discuss the subject further if you like.
(I still have to find the reference about God not taking human form.)
Terrie 584 09-11-2001 12:39 AM
Thanks, Sparrow. The message with the word was for me, but I forget the context of the message.
Terrie 583 09-11-2001 12:38 AM
Fascinating, Beth!! Something for Sunrise maybe, but definitely not for Hari's site! Thanks for posting this oracle. I never seems to have much luck with asking oracles for answers. I don't know why.
A Sparrow 582 09-11-2001 12:38 AM
Someone asked a while back what the word "puerile" means. It means immature; childish.
Beth 581 09-11-2001 12:27 AM
Another "inner experience" to add to the boardLast night I threw the I Ching. The question was:
"What is going to happen with the expose pf SSB"?I got: Hexagram # 36 - 3rd changing line.
This is what my books say:1st book: Darkening of the light during the hunt in the South
(South India)
Their great leader is captured
One must not expect results too soon
Commentary:
The strong loyal men are striving eagerly and in good faith to create order when they suddenly encounter (come face to face with ) the ringleader of disorder and seize him. Victory is achieved. But in abolishing abuses, one must not be too hasty, as this would not have good results, because the abuses have been in existence for so long.
Further commentary:
The aim is centered on the hunt. That success comes, that the great leader of the darkening is captured, is NOT something premeditated, hence the success is all the greater. (example:) King WU (of ancient China) had no intention of acquiring personal power and seizing an Empire for himself. It fell to him because of his good character. (my interpretation: the accusers of sb are not doing this out of mean, selfish motives, but doing this out of righteous, selfLESS motive...hence they accomplish their mission...it "falls" to them).
Interpretation from a 2nd I Ching book: One is taking arms against a southern region and captures it's principal leader. Do not attempt any quick remedy of the situation. The objective of "taking arms against a southern region" is to accomplish a great task.
Commentary: The men are well placed to undertake a great task. However, they should not expect quick results, for the dark forces are still numerous, as indicated by the three yin lines in the upper trigram. He is sure, however, to acheive succes if he exercises patience.
From I Ching book number 3:
Though his intentions are good and he succeeds in this case, he must nevertheless guard against excessive zeal. While it is a most excellent thing to fight against "unrighteousnes" ("the forces of darkness"), we should not go so far as to endanger our lives unnecessarily.
Terrie 580 09-11-2001 12:21 AM
Ref #550, 551: Dr. Siva,"Pl.give your specific( i.e.book, chapter, pg etc).reference for the following and all your quotes. "Although God can do anything, He has never chosen to take a human form called "God" and walked among men."
Fair request. I will find it or get it from Dennis. One or the other of us has posted this quote before with the reference. I've had to do a lot of other writing lately and am tired and late in tracking this board. Generally I'm very careful with references.
"You quoted Yogananda saying that 'God is in mysef' and not that 'I am God."
No, I didn't say that. The quote was, "God has BECOME myself." I think that reference might be on Sunrise. I will check.
'" As you know Sanathna Dharma and SB teach the accepted three interpretations of the Vedas. They are;
"1. I am in God or I am in the light or I am messanger of God or Dwaita philosophy - Dualism, as interpreted by Madvachariya "2. God is in me or The light is iin me or I am Son of God or Visistadwaita philosophy -Qualified dualism, as interpreted by Ramanuja. "3. I am God or I and the light are one or I and Father are one or Adwaita philosophy -Non Dualism, as interpreted by Sankara." ...end of quote....
Yes, but what has that to do with sb's statements that he is God, and that nothing happens without his will? He is claiming to be the entire, perfect unmanifested God. However, as soon as God takes any manifested form he/she become imperfect by virtue of partaking of the world of duality.
According to Yogananda, a manifested being cannot say "I am God," because God has BECOME all manifested forms. A manifested being may ultimately realize his union with the one God, but he/she cannot claim to be ALL of God. ALL of God is the unmanifest, invisible: "far, far beyond quality and thought." The ALL cannot be expressed in the universe of duality.
SUNRISE 574 09-10-2001 11:48 PM
Edited by author 09-10-2001 11:50 PM
Hari, thank you for your detailed reply. Your site is superb in that you have carefully selected every article on the site. Your site would stand up well under legal scrutiny.
We see the purpose of Sunrise as different. It is more a collection place for various experiences and thoughts of ex-devotees (personal dreams, for example) that are more for ex-devotee sharing than for any legal investigation. Many entries on Sunrise, while giving devotees and ex-devotees pause for thought, could not help from the legal standpoint.
So in publishing the letter and names supposedly from one or more ex-devotees who were molested, and also putting your well thought out post(s) on the site, we are leaving open the possibility that the communication is genuine and also warning that it may be something else.
We are saying, "We don't know, but here is the communication and the list as well as Hari Sampath's reservations about the list. Each person who goes to that part of the site can make up his or her own mind.
We personally feel that Sunrise and Sathyasaivictims are good compliments to each other. They look very different and serve two completely different purposes.
If later evidence shows that the communnication should we withdrawn, we don't mind admitting our mistake. If the list and post prove to be genuine, site visitors had the opportunity to see it and perhaps add their names.
Sincerely,
Sunrise staff
Hari Sampath 573 09-10-2001 10:10 PM
Edited by author 09-10-2001 10:18 PM
To Sunrise :What I would personally prefer is that you publish that list ONLY after at least you are satisfied that it is genuine.
Publishing that list and adding my message too is not going to serve any purpose ( of course you may use my message, if you want, no problem).
The point I was trying to make here is that we should NOT publish anything from someone we do not even know. We need not be in such great "eagerness" to publish whatever we get on hand, that would make our effort another version of tabloid journalism.
To further illustrate the point, what would you do if after one month some 20 persons mentioned in that list write you directly , with proof of identity, and say that they were NEVER molested by Sai Baba? You would not only have to remove the list, but also publicly acknowledge that you were hasty. As a result if devotees of Sai Baba say that since we are out with this attitude of publishing anything and everything, and we can hardly be relied upon, won't that give a very unreliable and motivated characterisation to the expose and attribute motives to everyone concerned ?
Further, being one of the better known sites to expose Sai Baba, Sunrise must certainly exercise mature discrimination in determining if what is given has credibility or not.
If some devotee sends an anonymous e-mail saying that he/she saw Sai Baba create an elephant out of thin air yesterday, and if any pro Sai Baba site carried it, what would you say to that as "proof" of Sai Baba's divinity ? Won't we all pounce on it and call it outright rubbish , and challenge the person to come out with concrete evidence ? The same holds good both ways to the most reasonable extent possible.
As a matter of fact, this is the reason why I had not put the account of the 15 year old boy (Diary notes) on my website. Although I personally believe the story, and I know the identity of the boy and his mother, the very fact that the account was NOT given under their own names means that I cannot say " this person gave this account", so I have chosen not to carry it ( although I wish I could do so under their names).
Even when I met with the FBI, they went over very single affidavit with a microscope ( it took 4 hours) , and asked all sorts of questions about the people who gave these statements and were eventually convinced after asking every possible question that I answered. Although I gave the 15 year old boy's statement too and mentioned his name, I specifically mentioned that this person was not willing to state that under his own name and as such it was not an affidavit, but only a reference. They said it is useless.
They were also quick to point out that if these notes by the 15 year old boy were made in September 1999 after interviews, at which time he had no idea at all that he was going to be sending it out to everyone 8 months later, then how come he had written " I certify what I had written is true....etc" The FBI felt that it was a later addition or perhaps the notes were rewritten much later , copied from elsewhere where they were originally written, because at the time of writing these notes the boy was still a devotee, as was his mother.
When this is the standard of enquiry official law enforcement agencies take, should we not be very careful about what we accept as true and what we don't ?
Accepted that websites are not really investigative agencies and are mere clearing houses of information, but still I feel that we MUST apply every possible filter, and ONLY endorse or publish what we KNOW to be true, and what we can eventually substantiate.
Thanks,Hari SampathSUNRISE 572 09-10-2001 09:25 PM
Edited by author 09-10-2001 09:25 PM
Ref #567,
Hari, how about if we put your post #567 on Sunrise along with the ex-student post? (On the same page) We put the post on the site for information only, and to see if there would be any responses.
Balaraman Suresh 570 09-10-2001 09:12 PM
Dear Ex-Student's,I am glad that you have posted a better post and mentioning the dead men.While it's risky for you all living in India and try to make any headway regarding Parthi Baba's Un-natural Action's,Unless you all communicate with either one of us confidentially,how can we take any action seriously.You must trust us to trust you by giving your original names and contact, for us to start lobbying for you guys.It's not the end of the world,your plight will be avenged thru justice in the normal course or other means.Snowcrest has offered,Hari Sampath as an Indian Citizen he is keeping his patriotic fervour high here in USA,you could contact him or anybody whom you feel confident and trustworthy,please name them we will try and arrange it for you to take shelter or protection.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 569 09-10-2001 08:59 PM
REPLY TO EX STUDENT..You've included only Hedge and Scott in your list as perhaps being foiegners and the rest of 153 being perhaps of Indian origin. The long awaited molested victim stories of local-Indian-students of Sai is being born out of forlorn hope. Incidentally, student Mayur Pandiya, in your list is the same who currently resides in Vancouver.? He gave an excellent speech two weeks ago in a local retreat or is he a different one.?
Hari Sampath 567 09-10-2001 07:31 PM
Edited by author 09-10-2001 07:32 PM
Ref msg # 563To Sunrise :I still say that in the interests of the expose, for any website to post this list or to promote the impression that this is a genuine list, the people responsible for posting should at least give their details privately, and webmasters should post only after due verification.
The easiest thing for anyone to do is to send lists anonymously by e-mail. I myself have a list of hundreds of Sai Baba students with all details. Does it mean that if I anonymously post a "molested list" with 500 names, that can be taken as Truth ?
When engaged in an effort to establish Truth, a certain amount of caution needs to be exercised in ascertaining whether what we publish could be verified, and found to be authentic.
While I agree there is no " visual proof" that can be given for these molestations, it is important to remember that several people are already giving their accounts under their own names.
If the people sending such lists , at least confirm, verify their own identities privately, and also give specifics, then the list can be published ( without the details of the students, of course).
One more obvious issue is, if "ex student" himself is one of the names mentioned, then what is the problem in identifying which name (privately) ?
Further , as several of the names mentioned, like Sanjay Sahney, Ravi Mariwala, and others are still with Sai Baba and NO WAY would have agreed to or added their names to this list.
I know that Gagan Manchanda , Anand Sur, and quite a lot more boys were in "top form" and were definitely molested.
I also think that Anuj Mehta is now somewhere in Soth Africa, where he is a pilot, I had contacted him through a friend at SSIHL some 8 months back. He too had spoken about many of these molestations.
If C Ramprasad and C Krishnaprasad refer to Registrar Chakravarthi's sons, then too I am very much doubtful whether they would ever have anything to do with this. They were never even devotees at any time. Now they are in the US
Some names are true, some are doubtful. All this can be clarified, only if "xstudent" replies with all his details.
Untill then, I would prefer that this list is not publicised as "concrete evidence" as that will only dilute the effect of other genuine accounts we are publishing . I speak of course for our own site http://www.sathyasaivictims.com and I respect others' rights to make determinations as they think fit.
Thank you,Hari Sampath
SUNRISE 566 09-10-2001 07:21 PM
The new letter from "ex-sai" students is now on Sunrise along with the list of names. (Breaking News) We have also seen this letter circulating among U.S. devotees in the last day or so.
Terrie 565 09-10-2001 07:15 PM
Yes, I would urge ex-students to send e-mails to Hari or contact him via phone. Hari, I remember seeing your phone number and address somewhere in the last months. Is it on Sunrise?
I do not know Hari Sampath personally, but he has been working constantly for the expose' and seems to be the only person who can show definite results for his labors, being aware of news stories before they break, etc.
My heart goes out to all molested students, even those who try to make light of being molested by sb, thinking that later social position and money are more important than morality. How far the moral standards of India have fallen from more ancient times!
Hari Sampath 564 09-10-2001 07:07 PM
Ref msg # 562To Ex student.Your messages that are being posted consistently would only be of value if you could at least identify yourself privately.
If the real intention is to permenantly stop Sai Baba from molesting young boys, then you must commit yourself 100 % to this cause, even if you yourself stay in the background.
There are a lot of people working actively on exposing Sai Baba and several official actions have been initiated in India as well as USA.
As you are just posting messages anonymously, it is only reasonable to expect people to ask for some kind of corroboration.
I had sent you two e-mails asking for details about yourself, and had assured you that your details would be kept just to myself.
I had filed criminal complaints against Sai Baba with the CBI in India, with the FBI , in USA as well as a case in the Supreme court of India.
If safety is the reason why you are not coming forward, then at least you can contact me privately by e-mail.
I had given you all details of what I can do, and how I can do it.
So, if you are really serious, please do get in touch with me privately through the e-mail I sent you, or harisampath@yahoo.com, with details of how I can contact you directly.
Thank you,Hari Sampath.
SUNRISE 563 09-10-2001 05:49 PM
Ref #562, Ex-sai students:Thank your for your second post. We will copy your post to Sunrise and ask that some of you send private e-mails to our site to verify your identity. Your e-mails will be kept completely confidential, and will be shared with NO ONE without your permission. sunrise@snowcrest.net
We did not put your first QT post on Sunrise because Hari Sampath questioned the vaidity of your post. We are not claiming who is correct one way or the other, but we feel it would be helpful to place your post on Sunrise (Breaking News page) http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise The post will be on the site by tonight.
It is sad that some of the molested students give the abuse little importance..."a few quick ones with the old sai baba..."
Sincerely,
Sunrise staff (2 people, Northern California)(We keep our idenities quiet because of relatives in India. We are not working with any other individual person or group, but merely want to make expose' information available to everyone.)
zyyyillions 561 09-10-2001 02:53 PM
PLEASE CHECK THIS SITE: ITS A VERY IMPORTANT SITE: www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com
Tony O'Clery 560 09-10-2001 12:49 PM
Re: 155 alleged molestees.
Please post a denial if your name was inadvertantly put on the list. If you cannot in all truthfulness deny it then the list stands? If you do post, put your year of school at pn, the boys name who sat beside you, the best student in the class, and the class and form captain, and your father's name......Tony.
Kyra Kitts 559 09-10-2001 11:31 AM
Dear All,I want to clarify my position regarding my dream, as I feel that my wording may have been imprecise and thus open to misinterpretation.
I believe that under ideal circumstances ANY wounded, sick self-professed teacher, including Sai Baba, would be able to get over his/her illness and become a positive teacher figure through the example of his/her coming clean publically about their mistakes and starting over. Starting over under such circumstances would also involve making compensation to each and every person one has hurt while abusing one's power over others. Such an action requires great courage and humility, in my opinion.In Sai Baba's case, however, I deeply doubt that he is willing to take such a positive step. However, just because I doubt that it can happen doesn't mean that I won't pray for Sai Baba's inner healing.
As it stands now, I see Sai Baba as the worst possible example of being a teacher via negative example; a shadow teacher only. One can learn from an unreformed shadow teacher, certainly, but I feel that the price can be too great.Love, Kyra
Hari Sampath 558 09-10-2001 11:22 AM
Ref : 556 to SAISHOOT :I never claimed to be a champion of children's rights.All I am doing is to help in exposing Sai Baba to be a fake and a criminal.
EVEN if Sai Baba had NEVER indulged in child abuse, I would still be doing this as he is a fraud and people deserve to know the Truth about him.
My focus is NOT child abuse ( although I do strongly condemn it) , but my focus is Sai Baba.
With regard to "clean your own" , I am most definitely doing that. USA is NOT "my own" , India is most definitely my own. And India's greatest enemy right now is the criminal Sai Baba who is posing as an "avatar".
Thank you,Hari Sampath.
Andries 557 09-10-2001 10:17 AM
"....Truth is extremely painful especially if one has been accustomed to lies all his life. It is like telling someone that his father is a murderer, a rapist or a criminal. This might be the truth yet the child who adulates his father cannot take it. The shock would be so great that the first thing he will do is to deny it. He will call you a liar and he will hate you for hurting him. He will curse you and hold you are his enemy and he may even discharge his anger at you by physically attacking you.
This is the stage of denial. It is a self defense mechanism. If pain is too big, denial will take that pain away. If a mother is informed that her child has died in an accident, the first thing she would do is to deny. People who have lost a loved one often believe that this is all a bad dream and when they wake up everything will be okay. But unfortunately facts are stubborn and they will not go away. One can live in denial for a while but s/he must accept the truth sooner or later. ..Denial takes away the pain. Denial is soothing. Denial is bliss. But denial is hiding ones head in the sand. One cannot stay in denial forever. Sooner or later we have to face the truth and deal with it.
... "by Ali Sina(I also posted this on Balaraman Suresh' board http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/xGc5TzRrJmP7 )
SAISHOOT 552 09-10-2001 09:41 AM
CRAZY 'Y AND y'Some of the Yogananda quotes being quoted here revel either Yogananda had been drunk as one you had quoted that he did before his samadhi-crazy 'y'-and ate meat, or you ought to be making up these stories. Pl.read in Autobigraphy of a Yogi in the last section, what the funeral director says. As has been requested, here now and before, pl.give proper references to ALL your information and make your tree fruitful..right now it stinks..
Did Y teach a different Gita.? Pl.read Gita and realise that the first 6 chapters of Gita deal with 'THOU', the last 6 chap. deal with 'THAT' and the mid 6 chap.deal with 'ART' announcing that;
'THOU ART THAT.'Sabapathy Siva 551 09-10-2001 09:12 AM
RELPLY TO TERRIE;Pl.give your specific( i.e.book, chapter, pg etc).reference for the following and all your quotes. Thanks. as said,> "Although God can do anything, He has never chosen to take a > human form called "God" and walked among men."
Sabapathy Siva 550 09-10-2001 08:57 AM
Greetings Terrie;You quoted Yogananda saying that 'God is in mysef' and not that 'I am God.' As you know Sanathna Dharma and SB teach the accepted three interpretations of the Vedas. They are;
1. I am in God or I am in the light or I am messanger of God or Dwaita philosophy - Dualism, as interpreted by Madvachariya 2. God is in me or The light is iin me or I am Son of God or Visistadwaita philosophy -Qualified dualism, as interpreted by Ramanuja. 3. I am God or I and the light are one or I and Father are one or Adwaita philosophy -Non Dualism, as interpreted by Sankara.
All three are accepted practices by Hinduism. As Sai says you need to go through in stages to reach the Adwaita stage. If you don't accept or practise this stage, it is o.k. Upanishd's five 'mahavakiyas' or great sentances teach the stge 3;
'Aham Brahamsmi'-I am God.
'Thou art That'-you are God
'Tat Twam Asi'-you are God'....etc.Adwaita stage is needed for human beings to transform to a human-kind.
Hari Sampath 549 09-10-2001 12:23 AM
Edited by author 09-10-2001 12:25 AM
To Suresh : Ref : the CNN news about Shankaracharya:Yes, This is no surprise for an Indian.The Kanchi Shankaracharya , Sri Jayendra Saraswathi is perhaps the most widely respected and followed Hindu Religious Guru in India.
More than 60 % of Indians accept Him as a genuine and great Hindu leader, and most politicians across party lines rush to do His bidding ( may be because of the huge Hindu following He has)
No wonder Sri Jayendra has been invited as a State guest by the Chinese Govt who wouldn't even give a Visa to the Pope.
China is trying to please India, and they have judged that the best way to please India is to honor Sri Jayendra, with the status of the head of govt.
Of course, the point here is that Sai Baba is a looooong way from that kind of recognition among the mainstream Indian public or overseas govts.
Sai Baba is NOT a widely accepted leader among Indian Hindus. Very few Indian Hindus accept him as even a respectable person.
Incidentally, Sri Jayendra has categorically refuted Sai Baba's claims as the Avatar for several years.
I myself was a student at His school for 10 years , and knowing Him at a personal level, I can personally verify that this is the case.
Hari SampathBalaraman Suresh 548 09-09-2001 11:33 PM
Further proof that Parthi Baba is not what he claim's and it's the Peedhathi Pathis like the Shankaracharya's Of India who are the Jagath Guru's,and act as beacons in society.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east.../china.india.willy/
Balaraman Suresh 547 09-09-2001 10:46 PM
A Sparrow i agree with what you say,especially the meat eating part of Yogananda.And also it could be the main reason for Parthi Baba to be addicted to boy's and men for his partial rise of Kundaliny.
Hari Sampath 546 09-09-2001 08:54 PM
To George ( Sunrise)Thank you very much George, I appreciate it.Hari.SUNRISE 545 09-09-2001 08:23 PM
Hari, we have put your notice on the Breaking News page of Sunrise. There's a "New" note on the Links page alerting ex-devotees to read your notice. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunriseA Sparrow 544 09-09-2001 08:06 PM
This is in reply to a letter that was posted a few days back. I've read a few books about kundalini and I gathered that when the k is partially risen the sexual desires can be overwhelming, but when it's fully risen, that desire is completely transcended.
One thing I wanted to mention about the Yogananda controversy; I remember reading the Y said if you are served a dish with meat in it, it is more dharmic to subtly push it to the side of your plate and eat the rest of the meal (yes; even the part that had the meat touching it!!!) than to make a big hue and cry about being a vegetarian. So, it's possible that a few little chunks of animal flesh may have passed his lips from time to time. I think all the great ones place more emphasis on kindness and consideration of others than on die-hard rigid fanaticism
Tony O'Clery 543 09-09-2001 06:34 PM
Would any person mentioned on the sb molested list 155 persons, who was not molested please post your denial. If you in all truth cannot do that then let the list stand as it is.
Hari Sampath 542 09-09-2001 06:30 PM
To ex followers in the US :Please communicate to me privately by e-mail harisampath@yahoo.com
A very important SB expose effort is going on, and I would like to communicate to you about it privately.
Something very big is being planned, and I need former followers in US to contact me with real names, and identities, and contact information in 4 days time.
Thank you very much in advance.Love,Hari Sampath
Anon 541 09-09-2001 05:27 PM
I suspect that "Ashoka992001" is another alias for Rkmsr.
Terrie 540 09-09-2001 05:18 PM
Edited by author 09-09-2001 05:21 PM
Ashoka, please do go off to your own boards now. I saw on Yahoo that you had started two new boards. Anyone who wants to will follow you. Here we will continue to discuss sb or Parthi baba, as Suresh calls him. Thank you.
Tony O'Clery 539 09-09-2001 04:58 PM
Terrie 535, it may not be the same Anil Kumar, names are common. It it was I bet you he has been molested as was Dr N Bhatia.
ashoka992001 537 09-09-2001 03:47 PM
Dear Andries ( reply to the question raised in the other board)..Dear Andries This club is for both ex sai devotees and sai devotees..
but no discussions are allowed .. on sai baba..
or for that matter any gurus..
There are numersous groups available at hand.. which run smoothly..one being yours..
the main purpose of this club is to relax.. download the stress and strain encountered during the exposure process or the defending process..
During the mahabharatha war.. after sun set..
the kovravas and pandavas used to gather in the tents and had fun.. but sunrise.. they begin to fight
this club is the one after sunset..just mere fun.. and humour and jokes and the rest..
but interactive humour appreciated..
Fun and humour shall serve as a bridge and bond between the two groups.. Thanks Andries for your replyBeth 536 09-09-2001 03:41 PM
Terrie
K.Anil Kumar and sevearl other Kumars are on the listTerrie 535 09-09-2001 03:04 PM
Edited by author 09-09-2001 03:05 PM
Tony, wasn't Anil Kumar's name on that list? Isn't he the main speaker at the ashram?? The list is still posted on Suresh's board, but I didn't go back and check the list today.
Tony O'Clery 534 09-09-2001 02:51 PM
The list of the 155 molestees has been out for a day or two now, and is already widely spread on the net. So far the silence is deafening, that no member or that list has contested the allegation. That speaks volumes to its veracity thus far.
ashoka992001 532 09-09-2001 11:54 AM
Dear sai devotees and ex sai devoteesI have been hurt so much by the anger and hatred that exist amongst the two groups, and also amongst the various spiritual groups . So i decided to start a club.. in which both the groups will participate but will not talk anything about sai baba or any other guru.. This club is mainly intended to have fun and humour
amongst the two groups without getting into discussions with any controversial matters..
please do visit the clubs..
if any one wants to know my credibility..
i am Ashoka Harichand..and you can view my messages in divine love club..the url for my club which i started today is as follows:http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/funandhumour
Andries 529 09-09-2001 04:19 AM
Edited by author 09-09-2001 08:52 AM
Ref 508 Dear Sam/Dr. Siva,You wrote
>>1.All the allegations thus far remain unproven.<<The allegations remain unproven for you because you refuse to have an open mind, refuse possibly to read all the allegations on the internet and talk or email with the victims or their relatives.
I agree with Hari that Tony is an admirable, early example of a staunch devotee who in in all honesty courageously investigated the allegations. His conclusions even led to some kind of nervous breakdown which I experienced too btw.
"There is a principle which is a buffer against any information, which is proof against all argument and which does not fail to keep every human being in constant ignorance. This principle is to condemn before researching." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)You wrote
>>2.Possibly some of them like oiling male genitalia, massaging the perineum, were performed for sexual >healing and not done for sexual gratification, b/c; <<
Some testimonies tell that SSB is sexually excited. Besides could you answer this question? http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Dvanques.htm
Please, believe me every objective outsider can by now see what is going on. Devotees are stricken with long-sightedness. To them I would suggest to read something about other religious groups. This may facilitate the devotee to see whether the allegations are true or not. Take a look at e.g. ISKCON/Hare Krishna See http://www.surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/index.html The author's guru, Rameswara, had a secret relationship with a 14 year old girl because he couldn't bear the the tension and stress of his many responsibilities anymore.
Frank Morales wrote in his second letter
"When I began reading the accounts of abuse that have surfaced in the last few months, I had an overwhelming sense of deja vu. I was with the Hare Krishna movement until 1984 and experienced many of the same instances of abuse, lies and corruption that is currently being recounted by former disciples of Sai Baba."
From http://www.REVEAL.org about the origins of the International Church of Christ " In 1985 the Crossroads Church of Christ fired the founder of the Crossroads movement, Chuck Lucas, shocking the movement. The reason given was that Lucas was guilty of sexual improprieties of a public and ongoing nature. Many rank and file members of discipling movement churches suspected a power struggle at top, but subsequent testimony by various movement leaders confirmed that the accusations were true.
Worse, these leaders stated that Lucas' behavior had been known to and tolerated by the elders at Crossroads for many years, who had covered up for Lucas until his behavior became so blatant that they couldn't any longer. This would not be worth mentioning, except for two things. First, as previously stated, Lucas founded the discipling movement. (That's right -- Chuck Lucas, not Kip McKean.) Second, this was just the most public of a series of such cases. .... In the discipling movement, members have routinely been held to standards of behavior which some of the leaders have failed to meet. Further, the movement's leadership has rarely held an evangelist or leader publicly responsible for his behavior."
You wrote
>>4.My common sense dictates that the one whose work in childrens' education takes priority and being recognised across the world for His contribution to education (to quote London Times, SSSEHV or EHV has been adopted over 500 schools in U.K. and in 100 countries)is no pedophile. <<
There have been many well respected member of society like judges, teachers and lawyers who turned out to be pedophiles which shocked the general public.
Btw I have no problem with EHV as long as childeren are not taught that SSB is an avatar. I have noticed that devotees' childeren are often well behaved. To be fair, I have to admit this is the sweet fruit of the tree called SSB. Some say that Dr. Gokak developed EHV however.
Kind Regards, Andries K.D.Beth 528 09-09-2001 02:20 AM
Dr. Siva,Thank you again for your thoughtful posts. I did not understand this following statement of yours:
<<Beth, you are over estimating women's intution. Intution in women or men at its zenith can induce ecstacy towards one's Master, altering spiritual love to a carnal craving. It is the cause and effect scenario. Best example is Mary Magdaline's relationship with Jesus and perhaps some of the allegations against SB.>>
Beth 527 09-09-2001 02:14 AM
Hail to the goddess of intuition!Now that I've fulfilled my obsession to reply to everyone on the board, I'll say goodnight. *************
Terrie, LOL...get some sleep...I haven't slept all week because for some reason I can't stop responding to everyone's posts either! I'm exhausted, and I think I should shut up for a while...but the posts were very interesting tonight.....and I'll probably be up 'til 4 responding and philosophizing (is that a word???).
HAIL TO THE GODDESS !! good nite !Terrie 526 09-09-2001 12:41 AM
One more thought for Dr. Siva. SB has said himself in CONVERSATONS by Hislop that the spread of his fame and message is due in part to today's communication systems. (Which include almost instant publishing of books, TV, radio, Internet, jet planes, etc.) Unlike in the days of Jesus or Krishna.
Terrie 525 09-09-2001 12:37 AM
Edited by author 09-09-2001 12:38 AM
Ref #517, Beth," My intuitive sense of Yogananda is, and always has been that there is no deception in this Being. He is pure and true...Maybe not the highest god realized, but neverless, good, honest, and pure. But then again, what do I know? LOL."For God's sake, Beth, you have shown your intuition to be "right on!" And you examine your intuitive feelings with solid logic. Give yourself credit where credit is due! :) :) Women's intuition is on the rise! Hail to the goddess of intuition!
Now that I've fulfilled my obsession to reply to everyone on the board, I'll say goodnight. Love,
TerrieTerrie 524 09-09-2001 12:29 AM
Ref #520, Khoji,A very interesting and thoughtful post. You've made many good points. Thanks very much for posting here.
Next time, give us a few paragraph breaks (every 4 or 5 lines)for easy reading. Thank you!
Your post reminded me of a close SB devotee lady friend who had an incapacitating stroke. She felt the stroke was a blessing of her guru, and that he would soon heal her. Because of her faith in SB, she only half heartedly for a short time followed the advice of doctors for medical therapy.
She often said, "This is the year I'll get better. Baba is going to help me heal if I have the right mental attitude." She died being unable to walk and with no improvement in her condition.
I felt very, very uncomfortable when she died, as if she was trapped somewhere. I asked on the board about this feeling. (Or was it an e-mail??) Anthony Thomas has suggested that sai devotees are bunched together in a lower part of the astral plane, being unable to get free until they WANT to be free.
This went along with my feeling, but I certainly can't see the astral plane! (Where Anthony apparently can freely move about in full consciousness.) Sorry if this sounds a bit far out. Miracles sound far out too, but all they are is the natural manipulation of energy and matter. We just don't know how to do the manipulation.
Terrie 523 09-09-2001 12:12 AM
Ref #519, Dr. Siva,
Dr. Siva, I'm pleased that your posts have been polite and thoughtful, even if I don't always agree with your reasoning. You said:
"SB has come down NOT TO PROVE THAT HE IS GOD..BUT TO REMIND THAT YOU AND ME ARE GOD.
Ah, here there may be disagreement with the great ones. (I'm really sorry, Tony, but I don't have quotes from others at my fingertips.) Yogananda said that we should never say "I am God," but only say that "God has become myself."
There is really a terrfic little story posted on Sunrise by Dennis Hanish on the guru who believed he was God. It's on the Plagaerism and Red Flag page (I think). Please read it and then we can discuss this topic further. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise"His popularity compared to other Masters has climbed in no time b/c of His universal teaching and miracles."
Or because he contracted with various powerful beings to have great power and a large following in this lifetime. Hitler also had an immense following without the benefit of miracles. So does the Pope in Rome. Catholics revere him as God himself....because they believe that God speaks through him.
Yogananda said that God would never use miracles to draw people to him because that would destroy their free will to believe or not believe. (But there's no way we can answer this question at this time. All we can do is express our opinions.)
"He appeals to all faiths..something novel."Not so novel. The message of all the great ones appealed to everyone. It's only after the death of a great messenger that the small minds of men make a God of the messenger and enclose the teachings in something called a church. This is where India has the superior message, because there is great flixibility in how the ancient Vedic teachings are practiced, each family can have different dieties and gurus, all of whom are loved and respected.
There are Vaishsnavites and followers of Shiva, etc. Actually, however, orgnaizations like ISCKON have become dogmatic churches.
"In the whole history of the world, SB is the ONLY ONE who is being revered as God while He is still alive. This facet can not be erased by any one."
Yes, Dr. Siva, that fact is 100 percent true. And only time will show devotees if this is indeed true or as Yogananda has said, "Although God can do anything, He has never chosen to take a human form called "God" and walked among men."
So in SB do we have God or the Great Pretender?? Would we know the answer to this question if it could be proved beyond a doubt that SB cannot control his sexual actions with children and young men? (As Kyra's dream indicated.)
Please, I'm not being sarcastic here, only asking an out front question. (If you haven't read Kyra's dream, ask for it on this board. I can find it somewhere, as I often copy posts off the board.)
(The Yogananda quote is from the notes in GOD TALKS WITH ARJUNA, but it may be a bit paraphrased and I don't know the page number.) Dennis??
Terrie 522 09-08-2001 11:39 PM
Ref #518, Suresh,
Perhaps that is one way a real saint "speaks" after he's left the mortal coil: An aura of great peace is the areas or ashrams blessed by his presence when he was alive. I have been to Yogananda's Lake Shrine near the California coast, and it was so utterly peaceful that it was painful to have to stop meditating when it was time to leave.
We will have to wait to see what the aura/vibration of PN is after Parthi baba has left the earth. What will his folloiwng be? What kind of legacy will he leave?
Terrie 521 09-08-2001 11:34 PM
Ref #515,
Tony, you are completely avoiding or missing the points that Dennis and I have been trying to make. You are just not getting it. But that's O.K. Topic dropped for now.
Khoji 520 09-08-2001 10:05 PM
Dr. Siva,I think this logic of yours is typical of all SB devotees which runs something like this: He is the Supreme Being and everything is his leela. When his devotees die in bizare and terrible accidents, it is He who has commanded him to become one with him (got moksha). If something good happens, it is his Infinite Grace. A few years ago, a close friend of mine died a terrible death in a car accident. Another passenger lost a limb.
Baba's devotees were quick to point out that the dead man got Moksha and the limbless man was the recepient of such Grace that he was spared one limb. All rational thinking is lost in blind faith. It is blind faith that leads somebody to proclaim as you have that Baba has come down and orchestrating Maya to benefit all. For anybody to claim that he has recognized that somebody as a Supreme Being is stoking his own ego as you think you have been endowed with such a supreme faculty that you can perceive God-hood that others can't. This is the real Maya. At best you ought to say he is a much higher phenomenon than yourself. For recognition of a true master is the most difficult process and at no time can one be absolutely certain that he is the All Creator. One can only have spiritual experiences (which are truly internal) which show sign-posts towards something beautiful and ecstatic.
He is inspired by the Guru and loves him. His recognition can be only at the level that the devotee has been been elevated to from where he can see the next dimension. Any other pronouncement by a devotee is Maya too! A true spiritual experience can never be described. If it is described, it is only a mental phenomenon. With Baba apparently people have had mental and physical experiences. Leaving Baba but continuing the Khoj was the best thing for me. Having worshipped him for 20 years - the Baba who visited our house at least a dozen times - I am glad we are out of it. A sodomite can never be saint. There is no mysterious way of an all powerful God in this. It is a shame!
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 519 09-08-2001 07:37 PM
REPLY TO TERRIE/BETH;Thank you for your commets. The saying goes, ' In every saint there is a sinner and in every sinner there is a saint.' Pairs of opposites is the basic law of creation. The popularity of any enlightened soul be that may Jesus, Buddha,Ramana Maharishi, or Ramakrishna Paramahansa is time dependent.
On the day of crucifixtion Jesus had only a handful of followers. The greatest miracle of all, resurrection brought even his own non believer brother, James to be a disciple. As one of you wrote, God's ways are paradoxical and incomprehensible. Again as has been mentioned here erlier God operates under a Maya screen, not revealing his drama's final act. For me SB is a great maya director. He can and does things in which He is not a direct participant. There is a purpose in all His actions. He has come down NOT TO PROVE THAT HE IS GOD..BUT TO REMIND THAT YOU AND ME ARE GOD. His popularity compared to other Masters has claimbed in no time b/c of His universal teaching and miracles. Though He doesn't say anything new, He remains powerful..even today. He appeals to all faiths..something novel. In the whole history of the world, SB is the ONLY ONE who is being revered as God while He is still alive. This facet can not be erased by any one.
Beth, you are over estimating women's intution. Intution in women or men at its zenith can induce ecstacy towards one's Master, altering spiritual love to a carnal craving. It is the cause and effect scenario. Best example is Mary Magdaline's relationship with Jesus and perhaps some of the allegations against SB.
Balaraman Suresh 518 09-08-2001 07:26 PM
Dear Terrie,Even today when you visit Tiruvannamalai,Tamil Nadu,India Ramana Maha Rishi's grace can be felt,though the legend is a saint comes and patronises this place alway's one after another.Mrs.Indira Gandhi the late prime Minister of India was blessed by this saint as she was by the Paramacharya of Kanchipuram.There is still a large following for both the saints in India as well as internationally.
Ramakrishna Paramahamsa ashram in Belur,West bengal is so serene and peaceful even today despite the Metro bursting out of it's seams.The greatest disciple of course is Swami Vivekananda.Yogananda i believe hails from these parts of India originally.Srila Prabhupada is also from this region.
Saint Thomas who came to India is still regarded to ward of many ills of people and there is a sizable population of all communities who offer their Pranam's.
For Parthi Baba to say that he is the avatar and telling people that they can never comprhend him is probably his style of religious jingosity and frankly none of the real true worth Saint's give much importance but is tolerated as many things in India are tolerated beyond comprhension.
Beth 517 09-08-2001 04:20 PM
My intuitive sense of Yogananda is, an always has been that there is no deception in this Being. He is pure and true...Maybe not the highest god realized, but neverless, good, honest, and pure.
But then again, what do I know? LOL.Beth 516 09-08-2001 04:07 PM
The best guru (and ultimately the only guru) is the HighSelf. The second best teacher/guru is one who never asks for your loyalty, but allows you to come and/or go at your own choosing. Also, does not ask you to surrender to him/her, but to always, always question and re-question if need be..and experience for yourself.
I think one has to take into consideration the level of developement that the devotee is on. Those more advanced are coming into the power of their own High Selves. Those less advanced need the protection and the guidance of others...hopefully ones who are ethical and are leading them correctly. There is no judgement in all this...only that some are ready and have earned soverignty (independance) and some are still in "the nest".
As humans, all of us will and have had teachers in this world...It's up to us to learn discernment about such teachers.
I still think it's good, not so much to argue about whether Yogananda is good or not good, but to talk about traits & "signs" of a good guru or bad guru. This is important for people struggling to understand. The world abounds with deception and confusion right now. It's important to point these things out.
In defense of SB Terrie, I felt "safe" because SB often said/says: it does not matter if you pray to me or my form..(or worship my form) ..pray to whatever form is comfortable for you...We are all one and the same.
I accept that as a "truth." However, I am beginning to see ways in which Sai (seemingly) contradicts that...and causes the devotee to become attached to his form. Maybe I'm wrong. But a deceptive guru would talk 90% truth and then the rest of it would be "the hook" that pulls you in and imprisons you.
Tony O'Clery 515 09-08-2001 03:38 PM
Terrie. I have a guru it is the Higher Self or Inner Guru. I don't want to get into the yogananda thing otherwise it becomes like the sb thing. That is why it is better not to spend so much time quoting him against sb. For all you need is someone to pop up all kind of stuff and then where are we, true or not.
Beth 514 09-08-2001 02:21 PM
Dr Siva,If you are implying that only a few loyal ssb devotees are seeing truth and that all ex-devotees are not...and that this is the reason for the back and forth argument...well, I have to disagree.
However, in general, I agree with the article...it does not prove anything about SB though.
Terrie 513 09-08-2001 02:17 PM
Ref #504, Tony,"The same psychology is working as worked with sb. Surrender, usually to a person one hasn't even met in the first place."
Tony, this tells me that you don't have the experience of a true guru. I'm really sorry, but I can only speak of a Guru that I know something about: Yogananda and his line.
IF the guru is alive, he/she asks for loyalty and expects the disciples to listen to his/her advice on their thoughts and behavior. He works PERSONALLY with disciples, not in front of a huge hall of followers. But a true guru does not ask for "surrender" to his perosn, but only to God....who is only found within.
A real guru directs the disciple's attention only to God. This is where sb greatly differs from a real guru. Millions of devotees visualize sb in meditation as the PERSON of god. Yogananda himself prayed to the Divine Mother. He NEVER set himself up as a god, but directed the attention of disciples to their chosen aspect of God...the Divine Mother, Jesus, Krishan, etc. There's a BIG difference there.
"I have nothing personally against yogananda, I never met him. However there are a band of people who have very negative things to say about him, so why kick up the dust?"
Tony, you are copping out here. WHO are a few of those people?? One must always consider the source of negativity. Yogananda left his body in the 50s.
Beth 512 09-08-2001 02:12 PM
Dear Andries,
You said it better than I. Thank you :<<The anger, disappointment and sense of betrayal that ex-devotees experience and many current devotees will experience that is echoed here in words are the bitter fruits of the tree called SSB>>
Beth 511 09-08-2001 02:05 PM
Dear Dr Siva,I believe I was the one asking for explanations for the allegations against S.Baba. Thank you very much for your sincere response and the interesting article also.
Terrie 510 09-08-2001 02:04 PM
Ref #508, Dr. Siva,"- that spiritual development is according to the higher nature of man and is contrary to his lower nature. So the power and glory of God is revealed only to a few, and what they hear is not heard or believed by the multitude, as the prophet Isaiah said."
Then what of the Millions who follow sai baba? It seems to me that this quote guarantees that those millions cannot see real spiritual truth?
In any religion there is only one saint here and there who stands out, and that saint generally has only a few followers, a small group, a few of the faithful who recognize his/her stature. Yogananda, for example (sorry, Tony!) gave up lecturing to huge overflowing halls (for whom he sometimes performed "miracles") to concentrate on a few devoted disciples. (Devoted to God, not to the person of Yogananda.)
I don't have information on other great ones like Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishana Paramahansa, etc. Did they have massive followings in their lifetimes or only a few (say a few hundred or thosuand) followers?
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 508 09-08-2001 01:34 PM
Dear Amigos; LEVELS OF SEEING; I thought the following might be of some base as to why the dichotomy dances amongst us i.e SB vs Anti SB. If it is not appropriate, pl.forgive and delte it. Thanks. " A blindness to reality and the state of spiritual death are quite natural and universal, according to God's own laws, in the sense that even the Devil cannot exist without God's consent and without ultimately serving His purpose. From that point of view, spiritual awakening is against the current of God's own law of nature; or, as it is sometimes said- for example by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita or by Plotinus in the Enneads - that spiritual development is according to the higher nature of man and is contrary to his lower nature. So the power and glory of God is revealed only to a few, and what they hear is not heard or believed by the multitude, as the prophet Isaiah said.
It is not that the masses do not wish to understand or believe, but that they cannot; or one may say that they understand only at that gross level and not very subtly. There is no question of any injustice here, any more than there is in remarking on the fact that a tiger can run faster than a man, but cannot think as well as an ordinary man. Within the general range of homo sapiens there are many levels of spiritual development; and every tradition is thoroughly cognizant of this obvious fact of spiritual hierarchy among men.
Sometimes, of course, a person may be very struck and saddened by the unrealised potential of human beings, and the general heaviness of humanity. Nevertheless, as is clear in the saying of Isaiah, it is God himself who has blinded the eyes of mankind and numbered their hearts so that they may not really see.
The basic question is of the right inner preparation for understanding spiritual truth, which is the same as believing in Christ. Without the proper preparation of the recipient, truth can fall into the wrong hands and be misused, for as St Paul said, 'the Kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power" (1 Corinthians 4:20). The higher forces and the great teachers, who are seldom sentimentally compassionate, are therefore as interested in imparting the higher knowledge to the well prepared and rightly deserving people, as they are in hiding it and guarding it from the unprepared and the underserving. This goes right back to the fall of man in Genesis(3:22-24):
'MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.'(Matthew; 22-14)...choose to listen. REF: The Yoga of the Christ-Ravi Ravindra. (Not a devotee of SB) Prof.of Comparative religion, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Canada.
ALLEGATIONS-REFLECTIONSome one asked for devotees' explanation for SB allegations. Following is my personal opinion.
1.All the allegations thus far remain unproven.2.Possibly some of them like oiling male genitalia, massaging the perineum, were performed for sexual healing and not done for sexual gratification, b/c; 3.In the overall picture of Sai's life, esp.His concerns and love for students and youth bespeaks against any evil motive.
4.My common sense dictates that the one whose work in childrens' education takes priority and being recognised across the world for His contribution to education (to quote London Times, SSSEHV or EHV has been adopted over 500 schools in U.K. and in 100 countries)is no pedophile.
5.At 06:00 AM 5/09/01 -0500, you wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT > 507 09-08-2001 12:47 PM
Tony O'Clery 504 09-08-2001 12:25 PM
I don't want to get into a guru fight here. The same psychology is working as worked with sb. Surrender, usually to a person one hasn't even met in the first place.
I have enough instances of differences on the same vision between Ramakrishna and Yogananda to ask the question about mental filtering. Also using gurus who have their own band of detractors as a balance against sb, just begs the question.
I have nothing personally against yogananda, I never met him. However there are a band of people who have very negative things to say about him, so why kick up the dust?
Otherwise people will say like saiom and her million akas, it all satan and the devil and detractors etc etc