to links
pageThis document contains posts 527-602 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
Questor 602 07-09-2001 12:03 AM
Terrie, Obviously, there are those as I said who like belief systems. But that is what they are; "systems" and systems frequently break down. Divinely inspired humans? Perhaps, but even they had their faults. Even Ghandi, and even Yoganananda, and Krishnamurty.
Obviously, you may choose whatever you like. Whatever guru or divinity you like. I express my own preference and my own opinion here, to which I am entitled.
Obviously, you are entitled to yours. Andries asked me my opinion. As a human, that's all I can have. I have no absolute answers. My answers come from my own truths and no one else's.
Perhaps my answer will not satisfy Andries, and he will ask you. One can only wait and see.
Terrie 601
07-08-2001 11:01 PM
Questor, there are several points in your post that I'd like to write long replies to, but for now I'll just say that each of us is an individual (which I'm sure you agree with), and that some of us find comfort in the idea of having a guru (a TRUE guru DOES point the disciple within), and some others can live happily "following their hearts."
There would not be belief systems and organizations on the earth if some of us didn't need them for our personal growth. The trick is to use these systems to find ourselves, not to be told what to do. It's a very fragile balance. Those of us who were ssb devotees obviously felt comfortable with the idea of a guru and a belief system. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just another path.
As I said, a true spiritual guru or teacher never points his followers toward himself, but toward God alone.
I came across this quote by Yogananda the other day:
"God does not talk openly to novitiate spiritual seekers; their intuition is not yet developed, and so inner guidance is not infallible. God therefore guides through the instructions of a guru who communes with Him. The preceptor must have divine attunement or we have "the blind leading the blind."
O.K. so we all missed on ssb who was NOT a true guru. Yogananda did point his followers only toward God, but he's gone now and can only be contacted through meditation.
I hope I'll have time to reply to some other ideas in your post. Thanks for so thoughtfully replying to Andries.
...to be continued...
Love, Terrie
Questor 600
07-08-2001 09:46 PM
Dear Andries, I am referring to your last post to me in order to better answer your questions.
>Ref 542, Dear Questor,
Many thanks for your clarifying explanation about the psychology of religion. I asked you because I was very interested in the subject and you seemed to be too. Apart fromt those items you mentioned I would like to add the following important needs (esp. points 1 & 2)
that were fulfilled by my belief in SSB and my involvement in the SSB org. 1. A need for coherent world view in which all my experiences could be fitted
You know, Andries, the more I live and learn, the more I see that coherent world views are not the point. It is doing the right thing at the right time, which is important. The thing that one does at one time and seems perfectly right may not be the thing to do at another time. It is important to repect yourself and others, and to do no harm to others. It is important to be a useful human being. There is no real way to know if there is an afterlife, or if there is a hell. But certainly it is always good to be a good person. To tell the truth as much as is possible, within limits. It is also important to enjoy your short time here on earth. We are blessed with life, and should not treat it lightly. To me, the whole idea of karma treats this very life rather lightly. Others may disagree with this, but at any rate it is important to value our present lives.
If you try to find a coherent belief system, you will find one, and you may be happier. I don't subscribe to them. Of course I do subscribe to obeying the laws of the country I live in, paying my taxes and working to pay my bills.
Please let me know if this addresses your question.
>2. A need for an answer to the vital questions of life (connected with >point 1). What is the
meaning of life? What is important and what is not? And hence some kind of guidance & direction in my life.
These age-old questions have plagued humans for thousands of years. To me it is a journey that each of us must travel alone. Alone in the sense that we must learn and decide what is best for ourselves. The meaning of life for a jazz musician is different than that meaning that a priest might derive. The priorities of each individual are different. Of course there are the universal things that all of us need, love, nurturance, tolerance, acceptance, food, approval, to laugh, to sing, to feel needed, and to be valued. I think the important thing is to appreciate life, and to also learn to give back to others. To learn to give and to receive. If you can learn this I think it is a huge lifelong undertaking. Find people you admire and ask them. You will find that even they have made mistakes and have shortcomings but also great achievements.
Listen to your heart, what makes you happy and what gives you joy. I believe the truth and meaning is in each and every one of us. It does require searching, and some significant struggle.
>3. A need for a sense of belonging to a group, a family, experiencing the >sister- and
brotherhood
Join groups because they are a good place to learn, not because they will give you the answers. Groups are full of people struggling, just as you are, to discover or uncover the meaning of life. It is an odyssey that each of us makes, and finds his or her truth alone. The story of Odysseus is quite amazingly similar to that which each of us, male and female, make in our lives. The long path to find that home within ourselves.
If you don't verify this for yourself, if you count on gurus or priests or anyone to tell you they have the absolute answers, and you just go blindly, you may not be able to verify this. I think the ways of verifiying this is to think and listen to your own heart, your own feelings, and to also weigh the experiences and teachings of others that you respect. And to take into consideration the factual information that you have collected in careful reading and study.
>Note that these 3 needs can also be fulfilled by a political organization >like e.g. a communist
movement.
Organizations are good, and it is good to belong and to do work for the public good, and also to learn about others by working side by side with them. I think experiencing and understanding brotherhood and sisterhood means learning about forgiveness and love. That is a great lesson. It is also a good lesson to learn about what people are harmful and who to stay away from. There are definitely people we need to learn to identify as "not helpful, and possibly harmful".
>Imo it is very important that I don't deny or suppress those strong needs >but deal with
them sensibly and with discernment. How? I don't know.
Think about what issues interest you and then find organizations that deal with these interests. Join cautiously, and be helpful. And be careful to measure your time so that you don't get swallowed up and forget about the balance in life.
>Kind regards, Andries
Kind regards,
Questor
PS Please let me know what you think about my answers.
Andries 599
07-08-2001 06:12 PM
Hi All,
I have some email contact with ex-members of other cults or New Religious Movements whatever you want to call them. Some of them make similar statements about miracles and healing as many ex-devotees of SSB i.e. they can't explain rationally until this very day the events they have seen themselves or heard from people they trusted. Kind regards, Andries
George203 598
07-08-2001 02:36 AM
Edited by author 07-08-2001 02:37 AM
There are two more posts on our site: Hari Sampath's fascinating account of what goes on with the Trust and the Sai Org (OUTER PLANE) and "It Hurts"--Life after losing faith (HOPE) http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Andries 597
07-07-2001 08:36 PM
Edited by author 07-07-2001 08:37 PM
Ref 595, 596
Hi Terrie,
I remember an Indian guru who wrote that a spark of lust should be extinguished before it gets into a blazing fire that can't be extinguished anymore. I wonder who this guru could be.....if you know what I mean. Well, anyway I think he told the truth, at least for men.
Terrie 596
07-07-2001 07:37 PM
Andries, wouldn't you think that ssb would be a little scared by now and stop the sexual activity?? All I can think is that the false god is being controlled by sex rather than him having any control over his actions. Like alcoholism. There's just no way to say, "No." In which case, sooner or later, devotees will be forced to see the truth. ssb's behavior sounds totally obsessive.
Andries 595
07-07-2001 04:49 PM
Edited by author 07-07-2001 04:54 PM
Ref 593, Dear George and all,
The article in the local Dutch newspapers written by Mr. Harald Doornbos who writes that he personally visited the ashram contains hardly any news. It's just the usual story for me now. A certain Danish young man 22 years old called Lars Oesttergaarde from the Jutland peninsula admitted that SSB touched his crotch inside his trouser and that SSB rubbed the balls of his friend. I find it very strange that SSB still risks his reputation by this behavior. Does he think he is God that he can do that unpunished? Harald also describes the hysterical devotion of some devotees.
The article in the Dutch newspaper 'Trouw' was different and more balanced imo. Although I noticed in the Trouw article a mistake too because I know some persons involved i.e. Mrs. Joke Broeke could never have admitted that SSB had sex with anybody. The 'India Today' article was far more thorough of course than Harald's article.
IF I want to translate something from Dutch into English then other articles have my priority like Alexandra's "De Sai Paradox/The Sai Paradox" from 1994. I have her permission but it's a hell of a job. But may be there are more volunteers.........
Kind regards, Andries.
George203 594
07-07-2001 03:01 PM
Andries, love your ssb fill-ins!! I like "Spiritual Seeker's Betrayal."
George203 593
07-07-2001 02:58 PM
Thanks, Anthony. The energy around the expose' has taken an up-turn. There's more good feeling there, even though we're dealing with very unpleasant subject matter. It's as if the effort is being blessed by the Divine Mother. Protection is there too.
Andries, could you possibly translate the Dutch article into English so it could be posted in English here and on the new site?
MarsWalker108 592
07-07-2001 11:26 AM
Edited by author 07-07-2001 11:27 AM
Dear Anthony
On #16023 on David Lane's club does Preme1008 think that I am you. Some people on that club already think I am Tony.
Love, MarsWalker108
Andries 591
07-07-2001 10:43 AM
I wonder what a better abbreviation is SB (Spiritual Bogus) or SSB (Sincere Seekers' Betrayal)?
Andries 590
07-07-2001 08:49 AM
Edited by author 07-07-2001 08:49 AM
Just read an article about SSB in a local Dutch newspaper called 'Tubantia'. Title "Een goeroe in de problemen/A Guru in Problems", dated 30 June 2001. It covers almost 1 page. It's about the expensive cars, the fake materializations, the sexual molestation and the unclear financial strucure. The same article is placed in many associated local Dutch newspapers too.
The article says that SSB's teachings are very simple. I think this is a questionable statement.
Kind regards, Andries
Anthony 589
07-07-2001 03:28 AM
And a great job you are doing too.
If anyone sees that their own personal story of interaction with 'sb' is not up on the board, perhaps they could submit it, either on here or direct to George203. Even smaller incidents that may not seem so important could really help someone else who has experienced something similar. I remember how someone mentioned the intense sexual feeling they had experienced while sitting waiting for 'sb' to come out in the ashram and how ashamed they felt about it. That produced a flood of posts from other people who had felt the same thing, but had always thought it was a personal thing and naturally never mentioned it to anyone.
George203 588
07-07-2001 02:38 AM
We are slowly replacing as much of Keenan's site as we can. Today Jens' and Afshin's stories were added on the Testimonies page and the story of how sb uses the sexual energy of devotees is posted on the Inner Plane page.
A posting that hasn't appeared on the expose sites to date is a very interesting new story: A California teacher's prophetic dream (on the STORIES page). This isn't a molestaton account, but an intense dream experience re: sb and his millions of devotees shortly before the man became an ex-devotee.
We have maybe 20-30 new pages yet to add. They all have to be formatted, editied, and uploaded. It takes time!
Terrie 587
07-06-2001 08:16 PM
A new dawn for mankind! Anthony I do SO hope you're right!!
Anthony 586
07-06-2001 05:10 PM
Sunrise it is! And a new dawn for mankind!
Terrie 585
07-06-2001 02:52 PM
Anthony, this site seems to be loading a lot faster now. Thanks!
George203 584
07-06-2001 02:49 PM
Edited by author 07-06-2001 02:50 PM
Hi Anthony,
You didn't quite complete the site address. If anyone clicks on your message, they'll get the server home page. Just add "sunrise" after net: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
MarsWalker108 583
07-06-2001 01:52 PM
Edited by author 07-06-2001 01:54 PM
Dear George 203 and All,
I finally have caught up and checked the journal of the 15 yr. old boy on the new website. It is fathful to the original and very reader friendly. It seems when the 15 year old boy was writing the diary, he was not concerned with "pargraphs" etc, which, in my opinion, made it somewhat difficult to read. The site also has my cover letter concerning revalent imporant information.
Please check it out at http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/ca-15.htm
Love, MarsWalker108
Anthony 582
07-06-2001 02:55 AM
Edited by author 07-06-2001 02:55 AM
To everyone
This has been mentioned by George203, but I wanted to explain that in order to decrease the download time of the board for admin purposes, I have removed the first half of the messages from our board. Our message board now begins with post number 285.
All the messages from number 1 to 284 are now posted up under Discussion on the website http://www.snowcrest.net
George203 581
07-06-2001 02:34 AM
Anthony, whether sites come up easily or not might be a function of where we live and the time of day. If you're not in the U.S., that might be a reason you have trouble with that site. The new Findings site has always come up very fast for us.
The net lines get clogged now and then. I don't even try in the after school hours here, because every kid with a computer is on-line talking to the friends he or she has just seen at school, or they're downloading music or whatever....
George203 579
07-05-2001 09:40 PM
Anthony, we had no trouble bringing that site up just now (The Findings that someone saved). Are you sure you can't get it?
George203 578
07-05-2001 09:33 PM
Questor, we just replied to your e-mail. Check your mailbox. You have given us a really good idea of a pipeline. We plan a new page titled "International Pipeline" for the site. It will include links to other sites, but more importantly, contact information for those who want to help, ex-devotees, molestation victims, etc.
Please everyone, e-mail us any contact information you have, or your own information if you want it to be made public. Or you can post the information on this site. An e-mail address is fine, but we'd like to know where you live, country and city or near-by city. We're looking for local contacts.
Actually, it's easier to take information off this site than from our hotmail address. Hotmail dumps tons of ads in our mailbox. We're considering a new mailbox. Geroge203@hotmail.com
Questor 577
07-05-2001 06:12 PM
Hi George, Hope you got my e-mail.-Q
George203 576
07-05-2001 04:09 PM
Edited by author 07-05-2001 04:11 PM
All the messages from this board up to #284 have been posted on our site on the DISCUSSION page. They're easier to read there since they're only in three sections. Anthony will be deleting the early messages from this site to make the upload faster. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/
Anthony 575
07-05-2001 01:30 PM
Andries
That site is extensive, isn't it? ( http://www.exbaba.nl ) Pity it isn't in English also. But we can hardly expect that, I guess. It can only be my fault that I haven't learnt to speak their lanquage!
Anthony 574
07-05-2001 01:25 PM
George203
I can't get a response either from
http://www.npi-news.dk/page152.htm
George203 573
07-05-2001 12:29 PM
Edited by author 07-05-2001 12:36 PM
The 15 year old California boy's molestation story is now posted on http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/ca-15.htm. MARSWALKER, you know this document very well. Please read it over and check that it is faithful to the original. Your note from this site is reproduced on the page as well.
MarsWalker108 572
07-04-2001 06:53 PM
Hello all,
Please remember my cover letter concerning the diary of the 15 year old California boy. It also includes the Netherland's website that has a photocopy of the jounnal in the boy's handwriting. It is post 553.
Love, MarsWalker108
George203 571
07-04-2001 06:52 PM
Edited by author 07-04-2001 06:53 PM
Said, did you realize that Marswalker has posted the entire diary of the 15 year old on this site in 4 posts? It should also be posted on our site by the end of the day under "Testimonies." We are working from Marswalker's posts, which are faithful to the way the boy wrote his diary.
We also have the copy of the same diary, handwritten again for clarity. (I think the original diary was a little difficult to read because of the handwriting. Some of the punctuation is corrected in the 2nd copy.) http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise//
Said Khorramshahgol 570
07-04-2001 01:09 PM
Andries, thanks for the link. What I was really looking for was the experience of the 15 year old boy. If you or anyone can give me the direct link to that page, I would appreciate it. Thanks all!
Andries 569
07-04-2001 06:41 AM
Ref 542, Dear Questor,
Many thanks for your clarifying explanation about the psychology of religion. I asked you because I was very interested in the subject and you seemed to be too. Apart fromt those items you mentioned I would like to add the following important needs (esp. points 1 & 2) that were fulfilled by my belief in SSB and my involvement in the SSB org. 1. A need for coherent world view in which all my experiences could be fitted 2. A need for an answer to the vital questions of life (connected with point 1). What is the meaning of life? What is important and what is not? And hence some kind of guidance & direction in my life. 3. A need for a sense of belonging to a group, a family, experiencing the sister- and brotherhood
Note that these 3 needs can also be fulfilled by a political organization like e.g. a communist movement.
Imo it is very important that I don't deny or suppress those strong needs but deal with them sensibly and with discernment. How? I don't know.
Kind regards, Andries
Andries 568
07-04-2001 04:28 AM
Edited by author 07-04-2001 04:31 AM
Ref 567
Dear Said,
It is on http://www.exbaba.nl Press on 'Materiaal' and then choose 080. May be this site could be made bilingual (Enlish & Dutch). Greetings, Andries.
Said Khorramshahgol 567
07-04-2001 02:07 AM
Hi everyone. Could someone give me the link to the site where the 15 year old American boy's experience is? Thank you.
Cock & Bull 566
07-03-2001 11:51 PM
Dear Marswalker,
Thanks for the posts,but i am convinced that the boy was administered some mind altering substances.I really cannot understand as to how Raju can materialise oil in his palm,its toooo slick,unless and untill the boy failed to notice the oil bottle.As usual Raju in the garb of arousing the kundalini shakthi has enjoyed sexual gratification from a minor.May be Raju gets turned on by the fair skinned westerner's as Raju resembles the African descent.
MarsWalker108 564 07-03-2001 09:06 PM
MarsWalker108 (560)
07-03-2001 05:18 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 07-03-2001 05:28 PM
(4)
this?" -I like it. "But swami makes nice things...-in gold! You don't like swami's things?" Yes, I do! (He waved his hand, and there was a gold bracelet, with three identical symbols on it. I started to take the bangle off.) "No don't take it off." (he put the bracelet on me while saying: "Protection! Protection! this is trimurthi. (he pointed to each symbol) Brahma, Vishna, Shiva".(he again pointed to the bangle.) "See this one? It is cheap! You can get it anywhere. Even beggars wear it!" Should I take this one off, swami? "If you like it, you can keep it." [the bracelet he gave me is too small. It leaves painful marks in my skin and I can't wear it.]
(He took the Russian group inside; as they came out one by one, he stood by the door. As a particular young man passed, Baba pressed and vibrated the back of his hand on the man's groin, just as he did to me in the last interview of March 25, 1998 in Brindavan.)
(after he sat down, he asked me:) "What are you studying?" Homeschool & correspondence. "Home school?" Yes, I'm learning with my father & mother. "School is better!" Which school, swami? "Any school But if you're good, (with a slow smile,) my school!" When, swami? "Not now, in june." "Where are you staying? "the end of Samadhi road. "Outside? Why not inside?" Um, because we found a place outside. "Outside is no good. why not inside?" Because we don't have your permission. "Do you need swami's permission?"
"I will give another interview with father and mother. sit there, on the path, every day."
I certify that what I have written above is a truthful and accurate description of what happened in my two interviews with Sathya Sai Baba on Sept. 20 and Sept. 23, 1999 --N. C. May 1, 2000.
Marswalker 563
07-03-2001 08:04 PM
Edited by author 07-03-2001 09:02 PM
MarsWalker108 (558)
07-03-2001 03:39 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 07-03-2001 04:18 PM
(3)
it, with his prompting. He turned his mouth towards me, I gave him my cheek. he turned my head and kissed me on the mouth for a long time. When he stopped, I started to pull up my pants. He made sure my shirt didn't get stuck in the knot, and straightened me out. He kept telling me: "This is good chance; good chance; Look, there are so many people outside. they all want to be here. It's your good luck." "Sometimes you are wasting money, sometimes mother doesn't give. there's no income." (He waved his hand and out popped six 500 rupee bills. He counted them. [Rs.3000]
"For food. spend it. keep it inside. inside!" (I put it in my wallet.) "Don't tell anyone!" even Mother? "Mother you can tell." and father? "not father." "I will give you good life, good future. I will keep you well, (he counted on his fingers) physically, mentally, financially. If you ever need money,.....-or dollars, come to me." thank you, Swami! "don't thank me. I am everything. See? (he ponted to his palm) everything is here!" "I am shivashakthi." what? shivashakthi. I am Shakthi."
Then he took my hand and pressed it to his crotch. he moved it up and down, side to side, there was absolutely nothing there. "See? Nothing! Nothing!" (He let go of my hand and snapped his fingers, then again took my hand.) "See? Now I am Shiva!" (this time, my fingers touched a penis.) "I will give Shivaroopa." what? "I will show shivaroopa." "take namaskar." (I went down and kissed his feet, then came up on my knees.) "Sparshan!" (He pressed my head to his penis. I put my cheek on it.) "Linganamaskar!" I kissed it. He lifted his robe higher and higher. I first saw his nuts. they were very dark colored. Then his penis. I saw a drop of liquid on the tip; he wiped it off with his thumb nail.) "Take it!" I held it. I kissed it. I could feel him pushing on my mouth. It opened slightly. it slipped inside. He subtly moved his hips back and forth enough times [7] that I lost count. He finally took it out, and I got up.
He kissed me on the mouth. He put his tounge out. I just barely opened my lips, but kept my teeth clenched. It slipped in between my lips and my teeth. I moved and he got saliva on my right cheek. We left the private room.
(He pointed to my steel bangle on my right arm.) "What is this?" I got it in Varanase. "Kashi? Varanase, second name Kashi.. Why do you wear
Andries 562
07-03-2001 05:59 PM
Ref 556 Dear Anthony and all,
It is Alexandra's diary. The original was in Dutch.
Greetings, Andries.
MarsWalker108 561
07-03-2001 05:32 PM
My apologies. When I tried to edit #3 - no luck.I will make a phone call to rectify. Remember some errors in punctuation etc are typed on purpose.
Love, MarsWaker108
560
MarsWalker108 559
07-03-2001 04:22 PM
Please do not download the dairy unti lit is edited. I am haveing trouble editing it properly. There is one more post.
Love, MarsWalker108
558
George203 557
07-03-2001 02:57 PM
Thanks, Marswalker, for typing out the 15 year old's diary. We have a photocopy, but your post will make it a lot easier to put on our site.
Anthony 556
07-03-2001 02:30 PM
Thanks Marswalker
It is about time this child's story was made more public.
To Hari - anyone who knows.
I have a story that was listed as 'A Diary' but do not know who wrote it. I will paste a bit of it here and if you have a source name, can you let me know please? Thanks
***********
I don’t know if I shall burden you with a bunch of pages text written during my stay in Sai BabaÆs ashram and the few weeks following my departure there. IÆve typed up all those bits and pieces, and printed them today, Thursday March 5th, 1992. Some of those sentences --- Aj! I get goose pimples by the thought of someone reading it! In India not one hair on my head considered the idea that one day I might read this particular diary to see how my feelings for Baba had developed. Even less so, did I consider some strangerÆs eye sliding over my private notesà Yet, maybe it is time I share them, so others might see how one could become a devotee of Sai Baba, and how it is to become an ex-devotee as well. Here, read for yourself.
Madras, Tuesday Feb. 7, 1990
Gracious me! IÆm just one day in India, staying in a hotel with plenty of other guest û mainly devotees of Sai Baba, who are in town because they travel wherever Baba travels and right now BabaÆs in Madras! I saw him tonight! When he gave ædarshanÆ somewhere à Loads of Indians, singing songs, and then such a small man in an orange-coloured garment. Baba. I donÆt know yet what to make of it, but it certainly is an extreme coincident û a kind of surprise: on my first day in India I see Him, the one for whom I began my travel.
Whitefield, Thursday Feb. 9, 1990
Arrived yesterday afternoon in the ashram.
MarsWalker108 555
07-03-2001 01:21 PM
Edited by author 07-03-2001 01:40 PM
(2)
ear towards him so I could catch what he was sayig .He again pulled me tighter towards him, this time by the waist, until my crotch was right by the side of his leg, and our chests were almost touching. I had my chin on his right shoulder, both arms around him, his hair touching the side of my face, the front of my pants down. It was so bazarre. I could now feel him pulling the base of my penis back and forth. It felt kind of good. He finally let me go, and I pulled my pants up.) (He looked at me and said:) "Don't tell anyone. Don't tell Mother. she worries. Tomorrow and the next day, I will give interview. I will give, (he traced his finger on my chest,) a chain."
Thursday September 23, 1999
Interview #2
After asking me whether both of my parents were present, he took my letter and told me to GO. I waved to Papa and walked to verandah. Mom had seen me get up. She met me on the porch. Papa came and sat next to me. when Baba arrived, he shook his hand at mom telling her to go away. She was slow to leave...
During the interview, while talking to Papa, he said about Mom: "She is a good lady; a good devotee."
He turned to me and asked: "what do you want?" -A chain. "A chain? or Swami?" - Swami! "Yes, ( he pointed to his palm) what is here?" Your hand, swami. "NO,what is here?" (I took my guess) - the universe? "Is there nothing? or everything?" Everything! "good boy!" (he waved his hand, a metal watch came tumbling out.) "See? everything! what is the time?" (he looked at the clock) "Three-ten." (He set the watch, then pointed to my timex watch.) "this, no good! Plastic watch! take it off." (he replaced it with his, on my left wrist. It was way too big.) "Oh, small hand! take off two links." (he took Papa into the private room for a minute or so, then called me. Papa left. As soon as we got inside, he pulled me close, gave me a big hug, and started untuying my pants. He dropped them to the ground, then pulled my underwear below my butt. He grabbed my penis, and hugging me again, started masturbating the base of it. He kept repeating "Purification, Purification." I felt his other fingers grip around my crack and pull me closer, uptight. I held him tight in return. He turned his right cheek to me, I kissed
MarsWalker108 554
07-03-2001 12:32 PM
Edited by author 07-03-2001 12:49 PM
Interviews with Sai Baba Monday September 20, 1999 (1) Interview # 1
After he called me, I went on the veradah, and motioned to mom. She came, & we sat down. After a while, I realized that Papa had not followed me. I got up and went back to look on the men's side. I examined the crowd, Baba even passed right in front of me as I searched. I did'nt see Papa. I quickly went back to the verandah & sat down. Swami came.
"Where is your father?" -I couldn't find him. "GO!" (I went to look again. I stayed there as long as I could hoping Papa would see me; when I realized that people were soon going into the interview room, I came back.
Inside, a lady asked:) Please, Baba, can, can I have a chair? (Baba went into the private, inner room) "Come here, boy." (I went inside and while gently pressing and rubbing on my groin with the back of his hand, he said:) "Here is the chair. take one chair." (In the outer rom, he sat down.) "Where is your father?" I looked all over for him. ( he glared at me.) "Lazy. 'Lazy boy!" "And Mother?" -there. (to mon, asked:) "How is this boy? He is not studying well. eating, (with hand motion) goes round, round, round." (He got up, & gave me a long, fierce look.) "Don't do like this!" (He tookthe Italian group into the private room. When finished with them, he said to mom:) "come on." (I started getting up,) "not you." (After less than a minute, they came out.) "come on this boy." (Inside he took me into the corner.) "look here, you are a good boy. But, (pointing with his thumb to the other room) sometimes, with her..." "Sometimes you are not having good thoughts, good ideas. You don't study well. not good memory. I will give you good memory." (He started to wave his hand in circles, and sddenly, - stopped.With apprehension I thought he had changed his mind. I was relieved when he continured waving, When he turned his hand up, there was nothing in his palm. then I saw his finger shimmering .He was slipperily rubbing thim together.) "Oil," he said. "Open." (He started lifting my shirt; I lifted it up, thinking he wanted to rub it on my navel. then, with his left hand, [his right was full of oil,] he motioned down wards with his fingers. I understood. I untied my pants. He lifted my penis, put his fingers at the base of it, and started rubbing the oil into me. It did'nt hurt, but he was making a motion as if he was pinching me there repeatedly with his fingers.
He stopped, and waved his hand again. I guess he made some more oil. He resumed rubbing.With his other hand, he drew me close. He rubbed some more, and drew me closer. I could hear him murmuring some things, so I turned my
MarsWalker108 553
07-03-2001 11:33 AM
Edited by author 07-03-2001 11:35 AM
Dear all,
Some of you received a copy of the handwritten journal of the California boy who was 15 years old when sexually molested by Sai Baba in September, 1999. The boy personally copied his original journal to four pages of paper; and copies of these four pages are what was distributed.
A photocopy of the journal, in the boy's handwriting, is now on a dutch website: http://www.exbaba.nl/ First click on Gertugen, then #5, and finally paginar 1,2,3, or 4.
A very IMPORTANT POINT, not commonly known ,was that it was common for the boy to keep a daily journal. In fact, he or his family had published about a 30 page pamphlet of his works. It was especially customary for the boy to write a daily journal as the family traveled, including places visited in India.
The mother wrote a short cover letter sent out with the four-page journal .In the letter she says, "If you wish to reprint the testimony, please do so." One paragraph of the cover letter is below:
"After you have read my son's testimony, (he is 15 years old) you will probably be devastated. This is not an hour of glory, but an hour of truth. Please let the truth be known that Sai Baba is not what he claims to be. Truth has to prevail. Please stand tall, everyone of you. Once we know the truth, we cannot stay silent. We have to speak up."
I believe that it may be past time to discuss this important matter. Furthermore, the copying of the journal on my next four posts will hopefully make it easier to read.
Love, MarsWalker108
Questor 552
07-03-2001 08:20 AM
Hi George,
If you think it will help people, please do. -Q
George203 551
07-03-2001 02:04 AM
Edited by author 07-03-2001 02:13 AM
Good post, Questor. (550) It will go on the "Hope for Ex-devotees" page of our site. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise//
Actually, almost everything on this board belongs somewhere on the site. There are some great posts here. It all goes to show how good a moderated board can be. David Lane, who believes in "free speech," should take a look at what a little monitoring can do. David, are you out there?
Questor 550
07-02-2001 10:01 PM
Thanks, Terrie, Anthony, George, Andries.
I don't want you to think that I am anti-devotional. But I am beginning to see that pure devotion, as pure trust must be tempered by discernment. In fact, we cannot completely trust any human for we are all imperfect, and cannot always know all things all the time, what is always right for others, or even for ourselves. That is why love relationships must be tempered by a degree of good judgement, and devotional relationships with religions, gurus, must also be tempered by a degree of good judgement.
One can only wish and pray to find that someone or entity into whom we can put complete faith and love. Who will be there for us and whom we can depend on when when we are in need!!! Carson McCullers wrote a book whose title that really captures this; The Heart is a Lonely Hunter.
I think someone pointed this out; that some people are devoted to a love object and some to a belief or god- entity. I am sure that we all have been involved in one or the other--or both-- at some point! Not only to receive but to give, which is just as rewarding.
Andries 549
07-02-2001 07:55 PM
Edited by author 07-02-2001 07:56 PM
Ref 545, Dear George203,
Thank for your compliment. I have to think about writing my complete exit story. It is rather private and besides I have to protect my sources. See also my post 391.
I have been robbed once near my house during daylight which was a very unpleasant experience. But to deal emotionally with this robbery was extremely easy when compared with my SSB disillusionment.
Kind regards, Andries
Terrie 548
07-02-2001 07:03 PM
Edited by author 07-02-2001 07:07 PM
Questor, I agree with Anthony that there was a lot of insight in your post. I jumped too quickly to remarks about devotion without thanking you. In India such a too-quick response is called "kangaroo mind!"
Anthony, yes, we definitely need the quality of wise perception along with devotion. Innocence and trust just won't do it alone. Not unless we're already one with our source.
Anthony 547
07-02-2001 06:25 PM
Questor
Thank you for sharing your insight. So broadly covered and clearly explained. I see what you meant by your idea of 'why would someone wish to worship another person'.
Terrie
I reckon you are right and that some people probably do have the quality of devotion within them from birth. I think we each have different qualities. I think somehow all these beautiful spiritual qualities come together to make up a whole picture. Some people seem to be naturally very loving and have little need for mental or rational understanding of things. Others seem to show us the gift of freedom by their disregard for attempts to control or restrict them. Other people seem to be very wise and perceptive. Others have a great innocence and trust. I am sure there are other qualities also. Perhaps the idea is when we see these qualities in other people, we can become aware of that quality and perhaps choose to gain those qualities we see are missing in us. I often admire qualities in people that I am aware are missing in me. Pure devotion is beautiful. It is the desire to align to and with Source. I think someone can be devotional without giving their own spiritual power away. But of course, there are people who are devoted but will still be in a stage of learning of how that can be done in its highest form.
Terrie 546
07-02-2001 04:51 PM
Questor, I'm not sure that there is an involved psychological picture in becoming a devotee of ssb or anyone else. Some of us are simply born with a devotional temperament or a desire for unity.
The spiritual teachers say that all of us deep down want to become re-unified with our source (the spark of the divine which is our true nature). This is probably the root cause of romantic love, wanting to merge with another. I know you don't especially tune into this idea. I remember you saying that you found it difficult to read Yogananda's autobiography because he was so devotional.
So ssb capitalized on this innate longing in human beings. He set himself up as a visible god, a person that anyone with a devotional temperament could easily attach themseleves to. So much easier than a God without form!
Many ex-devotees experience the same heartbreak in seeing their ideal fall as a lover feels who has been betrayed.
George203 545
07-02-2001 04:34 PM
Andries,
Your story of why you became a devotee was rather touching. Did you write somewhere on this board about why you became an ex-deovotee? If so, can you give the post number? If not, can you tell us now? Your story would be interesting to put on our site. Before and after. Thank you.
Tony O'Clery 544
07-02-2001 01:50 PM
Vancouver Centre moved?
I notice the signs have gone from the old centre. I believe that Goldstein was up here recently. Have they purchased the old Visva Hindu Parishad building? It has a bigger hall, basement and kitchen, and can be rented out. What are they going to do with all these huge financial assets, when the shit hits the fan? Who will own them?
Is there paperwork giving loans, liens, mortgages to well heeled devotees handling the money? So when it does all collapse they take it over?
What is going on?...Who gets all the millions?..Tony.
George203 543
07-02-2001 02:02 AM
Edited by author 07-02-2001 02:03 AM
Anthony and Questor, your comments regarding our new site warmed our hearts! Thank you so much. We have so much more to add to the site and are already receiving letters at hotmail. We're a little slow because we're new at this (putting up and maintaining a linked site).
George203 is a composite identity of those of us working on the new site. Just so you know. It was Saint George who was the dragon slayer, and we want to help slay the dragon of falsehood associated with the Prashanti Nilayam avatar.
Questor 542
07-01-2001 11:20 PM
Dear Andries,
I am not sure why you think I would be the expert here. But I can give you my thoughts. I can't really say why you are so devoted to this religion. I think it might help you if you read and find out why you were particularly moved by this need to worship another individual and structure all your life around him. Perhaps you might ask yourself if you had a lonely childhood, or were very dependent on others. Perhaps you never were able to depend on your family, or felt abandoned. Someone like ssb would never leave you, never abandon you, because he is so distant that you can project whatever positive qualities you desire on to him. Did this devotion prevent you from forming relationships with *real* human beings? Were you very disappointed by the real people you met? How did you cope with disappointment over relationships? Think about how you grew up and what your family was like and how they treated you.
I think religious beliefs have more to do with who *you* are than who or what the religion is. What happens later, is the religion takes over and *tells* you who to be. It is an inner dictator that people choose because they need that structure, that inner authoritarian. They do not tolerate the unpredictability of the world.
Many people believe and also accept that God is forgiving and flexible. Some think that God is a very unforgiving and threatening one. Some think of God as a demanding one, demanding celibacy, asceticism, self denial, even self-mutilation. I don't think that everyone who believes in God has this problem. Everyone believes in God differently.
One must be aware that there are religious groups, cults, and abusive groups of one sort or another that exploit people's needs for stability, self-sacrifice, need to be dominated, need to depend on someone or something. These cults take people away from their true selves, and separate them from their families and loved ones. Cults also lie and use people for various functions. For education purposes, for proselytizing, for gaining new members, for making money. People who slowly realize the nature of this relationship, will leave if they have enough of their faculties still intact. Others are so manipulated that they never realize what is happening to them. Some cults do sexually abuse their members, and the abused feel it is a gift from heaven. Others realize they are abused and speak out.
Some cults elevate people to powerful positions which give them the power and appreciation that they never received in the outside world.
I think of religion as a refuge where people can go when they need help. Or when they don't. Or when they need someone to listen. Worship is a time of solitude and reflection. It is a time of quiet and conscience and evaluation. It needn't be a time for oppression and fear and rigid rules. It should not be a time or place where one's rights are violated.
This might be a bit disorganized, but hopefully some of the thoughts will be of assistance to you.
Let me know-Q
Andries 541
07-01-2001 08:17 PM
Edited by author 07-01-2001 10:21 PM
Ref 487,494
Dear Questor,
I recognized Sparrow's description of her devoteeship. Like Sparrow I was an ardent for about 9 years too. Not sure about the time. How it started? I had never read such beautiful discourses as in Sandweis' book. It really gave me guidance and inspiration in my daily life. Like Beyond the Form's magic lamp, post 481. Somebody I trusted told me a mind boggling remote miracle that she had experienced. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saiunity/message/2523. I still don't understand it. May be a misunderstanding? My visit to the first European youth conference in Denmark was important. I got enthusiastic and was very inspired there by Jega Jagadeesan, Conny Larsson, David Bailey and Phylis Krystal and by the love I felt and the sense of unity. The second European youth conference will be in Slovenia this year btw. But I'm not sure.
Could it have been stopped? There had been hot debate about SSB about 10 years ago in Dutch media instigated by the late professor in psychology and SSB opposer Piet Vroon but I was not impressed by him. And I had seen Premananda on TV but I wasn't impressed by him either. Nor was my father who was not a devotee. Yes, exactly like Sparrow it could have stopped if I had met somebody that I trusted who told me first or second hand about the sexual abuse. I knew that there had been an article about it in a Dutch magazine called HP but I thought it was just gossip. If I had read it then I might have changed my mind because the article was quite serious although condescending.
When I cleaned my house I thought I did it for SSB who could visit me because of his omnipresence any moment. When I did my work in computer repair I imagined that SSB would use the repaired computer. When I woke up in the morning my first thought was about SSB. It still is btw but the thought has a different energy......And then half an hour doing japa with SSB's form before I went to work. I was quite disciplined. My ideal was Sabari, a character from the Ramayana who practised the 9 forms of bhakti (devotion) and was rewarded by Rama's darshan. No wonder I got an altered state of consciousness more or less as described in post 396.
Imho the only thing that made it cultic was the fact that the guru is still alive. It was a very private, intimate internal behavior. Not even my best friend who was also a devotee was aware of it. There was hardly support from the SSB centre necessary for me to continue with this internal behavior That makes it even less cultic. Many devout Hindus practice what I just described with the form of Krishna or Rama. I found the sweet devotion very rewarding and may do it again. Much safer though with a guru that is already dead. I was aware of the dangers of following a living guru so it was a calculated risk but I was totally unprepared for the intensity of both the good and bad experiences.
Please, Questor, explain me the psychology of religion once you understand because for me it remains a mystery.
Kind regards, Andries
Anthony 540
07-01-2001 10:49 AM
Hi Questor,
Yes, it is a great board, isn't it - but it has nothing to do with me actually. I don't have the skills necessary or I would have done one ages ago. Actually, I have just passed on the cult list to the board owner in case they would like to put it up.
Everyone
The deletions are due to a spamming session from Dark Knight/alias our angry poster. They are being tracked now.
Questor 539
07-01-2001 10:06 AM
Hi Anthony,
Wonderfully organized, beautiful layout and with a great theme. I really like this site because it clearly points to the values issues and morality involved. I wish it a great start.
If you would like the booklist of cult information I can e-mail it to you. There is quite a treasure of cult information books that people can read and can be of great assistance in recovery. -Q
538
Anthony 533
07-01-2001 04:04 AM
George203
My post of 529 referred to your new site. Thank you
Anthony 532
07-01-2001 04:01 AM
Hi Terrie
Isn't it funny how some people have a confusion between 'the Lord' and a fuzzy haired chap that manifests trickets in India!!!! Ah, well!!
I think it is good for us all to remember at times like this that we can maintain love in our hearts for everyone - without exception. We can love the person, but not always their actions. Even 'sb' can be loved, for we are all connected, I believe. Even while trying to get the truth out about someone, we can stil love them. It is like recognising that a part of the whole has become corrupted and fixing it. I think this is a worthwhile human goal to not let slip away.
It benefits all if everyone stays detached from these levels of ranting and finds a place deep within themselves that can understand this guy really believes that he is protecting his master by attacking us. And his anger will be multiplied because he has 'sb's anger within him also. He is lashing out with the only thing he knows to do - harsh words. I understand this. I don't know why he thinks he has to protect God, but that will be in his own mind and we can't understand that - especially when 'sb' asks that devotees do not try to do this. I guess yet another site going up was too much for him. We can leave the post there to show the level of anger that can be displayed by people supposedly connected to 'God' who tells them to love others - and it confirms what I have always said about the energy of 'sb' being infiltrated into the devotee. How this, is many cases, causes an explosion of uncontrolloble anger when the devotee is confronted with anyone saying anything against their master.
Anthony 529
06-30-2001 06:29 PM
THANK YOU. Brilliant. Wonderful and superb!!
Terrie 528
06-30-2001 06:28 PM
Andries, if you think that ssb was taking you to God, please do try that meditation exercise with the light. Can you make the figure of ssb into brilliant white light? My experience was very interesting. I'll post it a little later.
Anupama (alias DK, Sanjay, etc. I believe), instead of raving on and on, why don't you try that simple light exercise?? Are your afraid to look into your own spiritual mirror? Let us know what you see. Does ssb easily become a figure of light for you?
George203 527
06-30-2001 05:59 PM
Hi everyone,
This post is the official announcement of a new expose' site going up today: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/index.htm
We wanted to help replace Keenan's site, but a lot of her material is missing. Hari Sampath said he's saved all of it, so when his site is up, we can provide links to articles.
Our new site is under construction, and we plan to add a lot of new material soon. By the end of the coming week, there should be many more articles on the pages. Some details need to be ironed out, but we just wanted to get something out there now.
We welcome suggestions, stories and your experiences as devotees and ex-devotees. This will be a site that constantly accepts new contributions. They don't have to be abuse stories. There's even a page for devotees who are still devotees.
We especially welcome first-hand personal stories. What was your experience like as a devotee? What happened to make you an ex-devotee? Did you have visions or guidance dreams? If there are any brave but up-to-now silent abuse victims of ssb, we'd especially like to hear from you.
Beyond-the-form's Magic Lamp is on the site (under "Hope for ex-devotees," and Anthony's "A very clever setup" is on the "Inner Planes" page. In our opinion, that article is the key to it all.
Thank you to everyone who can help to make this new site a success!
George203@hotmail.com