to links pageThis document contains posts 401-500 from the August 2001 Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
Andries 500 09-08-2001 06:54 AM
Edited by author 09-08-2001 06:56 AM
ref 492 Dear SaiShoot,
You wrote
>> A tree is known by the fruits it bears. So is any web site. Look at this board. It stinks b/c guys and girls who post mostly do a gossip <<
The anger, disappointment and sense of betrayal that ex-devotees experience and many current devotees will experience that is echoed here in words are the bitter fruits of the tree called SSB.
Kind Regards, Andries K.D.
Beth 499 09-08-2001 04:52 AM
Id like to stick up for Tony too. He personally helped me try to understand what was going on in the first few weeks that I was so bewildered by SB exposure. I agree - he has inner honesty, good intention and the boards just wouldn't be the same without his thought- provoking, "colorful" posts.
Each of us is entitled to an opinion...and I think some intelligent opinions are expressed here. But apparently you don't like any of us...So be it. You are entitled to your opinion too ...I guess.
(gee, I've gone from such a nice girl to a really
p. o'd b-t-h . What has happened to me? I think I've been hanging out with those bad people on the internet too long. How long have I been here, a week?)
Beth 498 09-08-2001 04:13 AM
Mr. Saishoot,I AM WOMAN...Hear me ROAR.No one said that sb WAS a woman-hater or afraid of women. What is being shared on this board are inner feelings, intuitions, dream experiences and actual physical experiences reg. SB. Some female sai devotees have had these feelings about him, including me.
Never underestimate the power of female intuition.It may seem like gossip to you but it actually may help others who have had similar experiences understand them.
With regards to the other topics...mantras, etc...
it seems that you are much smarter and more mature than the rest of us who are conversing on this board. Perhaps you would like to share your superior insights with us.
Anthony Thomas 497 09-08-2001 03:59 AM
Hi everyone and Terrie
Just got a chance to access the net and this message board. Caught upon the news re India Times, TV reports, etc. Great stuff. A roadway opens.
I copied it all.I am doing my bit out here to spread that around.
Hari Sampath 496 09-08-2001 03:53 AM
To SAISHOOT : Ref 492:Thank you for your kind comments . As far as other boards are concerned, it is unbridled chaos ( Lane's yahoo board) , and very little can be done.
As to Tony, he is a very valued member of the SB expose in the last 2 years. I may not always agree with Tony on philosophical positions or Spiritual Truths, but I am absolutely 100 % in agreement with him on SB.
Tony believes in focusing on what SB really does ( however unprintable that may be), and I cannot say I disagree in principle, only in matters of expression I have differed.
Also, Tony is a live example of how a staunch devotee denying the SB allegations , became an equally strong anti SB ( by begining of 2000), publicly on these boards.
As one who was intensely involved in debating these issues with him in those early days , both publicly and in private chats, I know fully well what level of inner honesty it took for him. He also showed a very big quality by publicly admitting he was wrong at first, and proceeded to put his beliefs into action..... not just silently walk away.
Tony has my respect, and although I am aware that many people ( including myself) may not always agree with all his views, I have no doubt about his intentions.
However, I see the point you are making, and perhaps it is best for Tony to address your concerns as he best judges.
Thank you,Hari Sampath
Hari Sampath 495 09-08-2001 03:42 AM
Ref : Students list:I am just trying to be very cautious here. I am not saying that it is true or false, but just that I need more authentic information and reliable confirmation before I can post it on the website we host ,
http://www.sathyasaivictims.comIt may be partially true, completely true , or completely bogus. But I cannot undertake to "endorse" it on our website unless we are convinced we can back up the information.
The credibility of all the victims who have so far come out bravely under their own names is at stake, and also the credibility of the expose and all people involved with it. By a bad judgement, made in over anxiety, we cannot afford to jeopardise the good work contributed by so many individuals so far.
Also, devotees and ex devotees have a right to know factual Truth, and should not be made to go through information that is totally unverified, as it may result in really authentic information being discarded as unrelliable.
Hence the caution. I do know many names in that list are those of boys really molested, but in the absence of direct confirmation by these boys or at least "ex student" , I do not want to post that or endorse that.
So it is just wait and watch, as far as I am concerned.Thanks,Hari SampathBeth 494 09-08-2001 03:27 AM
Hari,
So does this mean that the list of students actually was bogus?? Or, is there a chance that it still might be valid?
Beth 493 09-08-2001 02:55 AM
RE # 492...
Please keep this message on the board ...I'm too tired to respond to it now, but I wish to say something to him later.
SAISHOOT 492 09-08-2001 12:41 AM
Hari, your honesty in your reply reg. the pseudo list of ex Sai students who were said to have been molested by is appreciated.
A tree is known by the fruits it bears. So is any web site. Look at this board. It stinks b/c guys and girls who post mostly do a gossip job like the one today which says that SB is afraid of women..the writer just blabers what comes to his monkey mind..impulsive and childish...then an expo of guru judging.....then about mantras without any insight into them whatsoever..then a ton of egostical posts from a tuned out Tony...where is the credibility...perhaps you ought to run this board, Harry...
Terrie 491 09-07-2001 11:08 PM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 11:09 PM
Ref #474, Beth...That was a really, really interesting psychology experiment, and it shows only too well why so many devotees simply believe what they read in books about sb and his miracles. Then once a devotee, it's too easy to simply follow the party line because that's what they're told to do.
You have exactly the right attitude, I think...we're not supposed to be passive spectators of God's drama. We have to play our part and stand up, even fight if necessary, for what is right.
Terrie 490 09-07-2001 08:03 PM
Ref #482, Tony,"...he is a guru that some have a bone of contention with, and some of his statements and visions contradict other gurus and even jivanmuktis."
I'd sort of like to see an example or two of what you are talking about, Tony. Who are "some" and what are one or two of the contradictions? Since we're talking about the behavior of an enlightened guru, I don't think this is off the topic of sb....who millions accept as God and whose behavior should be perfect.
Terrie 489 09-07-2001 07:54 PM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 07:55 PM
Marswalker, you said,"I think we all have something to contribute. If you don't like the post just ignore it. This criticism is not constructive in my opinion."
I agree. Beth has been helped by your posts, and I've heard other favorable comments as well. We really do need ways to show that sb does not behave like a genuine guru.
Ref #485
Hari, thanks for your post on the list of student names. Let us know if there are any other possible bogus statements or lists out there. I guess it was just too good to be true.
SUNRISE 488 09-07-2001 07:41 PM
That was a close one, Hari. Good to have a cool head out there in front of the expose. Thanks.
Student List 487 09-07-2001 07:36 PM
In view of Hari's post, the student list and related messages have been deleted. If anyone thinks there is a good reason to leave the list up, please post your reasons. Site administratorAndries 486 09-07-2001 06:27 PM
Hari Sampath 485 09-07-2001 06:27 PM
Terrie and all ,I have been receiving this "students list" for sometime now, but this was not what I was referring to as HUGE expose news. As a policy, for www.sathyasaivictims.com site, we do not carry any item, which is given to us anonymously.
We have a policy to attempt to verify all information given to us for reliability and authenticity. I had sent several e-mails to this "ex student" to clarify about this list, and also to give me his identity and other details.
As I had not received any response at all , to date, I have no reason to believe that this list is 100 % authentic.
I know several names on this list myself. People like Ravi Marivala, Sanjay Sahney, Sai Giridhar etc are still with SB now and would never issue their names in such lists publicly.
I am inclined to treat this carefully and cautiously as this doesn't appear to me the way any group of ex -students molested would act, if they are acting in a group.
At the same time, I know that several names in that list are those of boys really molested, but I am not sure if they asked their names to be included.
At this time I am inclined to believe that this is the effort of some individual ( may be ex student himself) to just publicise some names who he believes were molested, without their express consent.
This might also be the work of some pro SB elements , just to make the expose group make sensational claims, and then to issue denials by these names, and make us look like people without credibility at all. In short, a clever ploy to discredit the expose.
For all these above reasons, www.sathyasaivictims.com does not subscribe to this students list as reliable and authentic, till more specific, verifiable information is given by this "ex student".
Thanks,Hari Sampath.
Tony O'Clery 482 09-07-2001 04:54 PM
My contention with yogananda is that he is a guru that some have a bone of contention with, and some of his statements and visions contradict other gurus and even jivanmuktis. So it is better to leave him and others out, and keep it about one so called guru ---sb.
Beth 480 09-07-2001 04:08 PM
RE #477- mars walker <<pointing out SB's red flags helped>>
This, I think is very important...to remind people just how a TRUE person of God behaves. And it is common sense really. So many are thinking that we cannot possibly know God's ways...and using that as an excuse to accept even abhorrent behavior in a guru/teacher...but really, we simple, mortal humans already have the innate answers within us. Just please go back to common sense. Truth and righeousness and "goodness" are simple and plain...not complicated and convoluted.
The Avatar may be creating this "play" for our learning, but he is not asking us (necessarily)to accept it passively and sit back and relax and say.."Oh this is one of God's leelas...isn't it interesting". He is asking us "Which way will you choose?" .."Will you stand up for rightness, for goodness "
He (meaning God, not sb, the mortal man)is separating the corrupt from the uncorrupt...(not the true from the untrue)and testing our motives...
Some of those who cleave to sb have ulterior motives (corrupt motives, selfish motives)they want something from him....some have purer motives...some won't leave because they are afraid...afraid of him, his wrath, some are afraid of losing god's blessings, god's grace. Some are afraid they are misjudging sb- (ie, God) and that God's all-mighty hand will punish them for their misjudgement. And some are there because they can see thru the "leela"... but choose to take a detached stance...detached from worldly involvement.
We're all at differing points of development... I chose (now) to fight for goodness in the world and to NOT take a detached stance. Last year I took a detached stance.
SB cannot ultimately harm good people, or bad people for that matter...Ultimately all lessons lead us to truth...all lessons are for our own developement and for our good.
But ultimately, if this earth world is to ever become pure and good and righteous and in harmony with God's Light...then people (human beings) are going to have to learn how to recognise and know what "goodness" (righteousness)(God's Light) is and stand up for it. This is our dharma. Immerse yourself in the maya and do what is right.
479 09-07-2001 03:42 PM
Tony O'Clery 478 09-07-2001 03:18 PM
By Tim Radford in Glasgow The end of the world really could be at hand and there are a number of ways it could happen, a science festival in Scotland has heard.
A strange subatomic particle produced in an atom-smashing experiment could, in theory at least, tumble to the centre of the planet and start eating the globe from the inside out. Or a random quantum fluctuation in distant space could switch off the machinery that makes matter massive, a step that would trigger a bubble of destruction which would advance at the speed of light, stopping all creation in its path.MarsWalker108 477 09-07-2001 03:09 PM
Ref:452 ,454 ,and 461
Dear Tony and Hari,Some of India's saints, gurus, or Great Ones mentioned by me on this and other boards to help expose SSB are Yogananda ,Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Ramana Maharishi, Vivikananda, and Sivananda. I obviously have mentioned Yogananda the greatest number of times. Here are some of my reasons:
1) I know more about him, his writings, and his teachings. 2) I know that Yogananda has had a significant impact here in the USA. His classic "Autobiography of a Yogi" is in nearly in every library of any size in the US and is in nearly all major bookstores. 3) I personally have known 4 direct disciples or devotees of him who have visited SSB. One direct disciple rode in the same car as SSB and slept in the same room with SB in 1964. 4) I attended the SB study circle on a weekly basis for over 20 years in 3 different Sai centers. Yogananda has been mentioned many times by other devotees to make a certain point and even extracts of his teachings have been read in SSB study circles here in the US.
I believe and am convinced that this is a board of discussing any guru if it will get people to think and compare and contrast SSB with a recognized guru. It may be only a seed which is planted but will sprout to full bloom at a later date. I know this is valid because I have recieved an e-mail of an ex devotee who indicated that my posts pointing out SB's red flags helped lead him to becoming an ex-devotee. Most of my red flags have concened comparisons to other gurus. By the way, this individual now posts on some of the Yahoo clubs from time to time to help our cause!!
We obviously are not going to agree on what should be posted and methods used to expose SSB. I think we all have something to conrtibute. If you don't like the post just ignore it. This criticism is not constructive in my opinion.
Love, Dennis HanischTerrie 476 09-07-2001 02:23 PM
Ref: #471
I don't plan on "worshipping" any goddess. It's just that it's comforting to feel the Divine within as loving and compassionate, and the underlying vibration of the universe is the creative feminine energy.
sb actually dislikes women and may even be afraid of them. This is the experiece of some women devotees. (See the Sunrise site.)
Beth 475 09-07-2001 02:20 PM
This "lesson" has been repeated over and over and over again in my life. And here it is again.
Beth 474 09-07-2001 02:11 PM
I took a psychology coarse in college (many many years ago, in my 20's). One day A person from a psychological research org. came to the class and asked for volunteers for a psychology experiment. I volunteered.
When I showed up for the experiment I was introduced to another "student" who I did not know, and was told that he was my partner in this experiment. We were told that one of us would stay in one room and ask the other person some questions. The other person would be hooked up to an electrical device in another room and would receive a slight electrical shock everytime he got a question wrong.
The other person volunteered to be the recipient of my questions and I had the roll of giving the shocks. But I told them immediately that I really did not want to do this. They said to me "Well, you signed up for this experiment and now we must proceed. You can't just back out, you committed yourself." They assured me that I was not hurting the person at all with the shocks. It was just a minor little twinge they were receiving. Then they told me to sit down and try asking one question.I tried asking them what the purpose of their experiment was, but they gave me some strange explanation and told me I was not suppossed to know, so don't ask.
So, feeling trapped and not being able to say "no" , I sat down and proceeded. Of course the guy got the first question wrong and I was told to flick a switch and give him his first shock. The shocks, I was told , would increase in strength with each wrong answer the guy gave, and I was assured again, that none of the shocks would hurt him. I kept saying "are you sure?"
I switched on the first shock and I heard an "ouwwww" come from the other room. I got up from my chair and said "I'm sorry, I just don't want to be a part of this experiment."
They argued with me, tried to make me feel guilty, told me over and over again that it was not hurting the other person, told me I was oblgated to do this for their research because I had already signed up. I just said "I"m sorry, but I just can't do this" and they let me go, but made me feel very bad that I had let them down and that I was an "unreliable" person.
I left there feeling strange, but dismissed it. I had no idea what they were trying to achieve with their experiment.
Several weeks later, the "experimenters" came back to our class to announce the results of the experiment and to explain the experiment...The experiment it turned out was an experiment to see who would follow authority without questioning...i.e., as in Hitler's Germany etc...They wanted to see how many persons would just follow authority passively, without questioning or putting up resistance.
The result of their experiment showed that only 2 people out of maybe 30 or 40 or so...maybe more, I don't remember... only TWO PEOPLE out of whole group put up any resistance and asked to be dismissed from the experiemnt. Only 2 people got up and left. I think I was one of the two.
I had completely forgotten about this event in my life until the other day...it welled up out of my subconscious mind.
Now I am looking back on my entire life and seeing that this "lesson" has been repeated over again in my life...
goddessfan 471 09-07-2001 12:15 PM
It is interesting that Terrie's path is opp. my friend's.. who first worshipped the goddess and then decided that Swami was so compassionate He could be her goddess god
Terrie 470 09-07-2001 11:50 AM
Beth, welcome to the ranks of the freed. The void doesn't last too long. I notice that I'm coming out of it now. It's a little less than a year since I heard the allegations. I am really so happy that conversations on this board helped you. That's the whole reason we're here. God bless and may he/she light your path from now on.
You know, in Hindu cosmology, it's the Divine Mother (Cosmic Nature, mother of all vibration) who is the first manifestation from the Unmanifested. so the "head god" is really a goddess. And that's just fine with me. I now envision god as a Goddess. I'm in the process or ordering a beautiful print of the mother goddess from SRF.
It sounds good to simply "go within" to find god when we lose a visible guru, but we're human after all. For me it helps a lot to have some kind of visualization of the Divine....at least for the time being. (Recognizing of course that we ultimately find the Divine within ourselves.)
Love,
Terrie
Balaraman Suresh 469 09-07-2001 10:52 AM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 10:59 AM
Referring Hari's post,what he say's is true.In contemperory India,it is guru's like Swami Chinmayananda,Swami Bharathi Teertha of Sarada Peetham,Swami Jayendra Saraswathi & Swami Vijayendra Saraswathi of Kamakoti Peetham,Udupi Shri Krishna Mutt's Swamigalu's,who wield enormous amount of influence among the masses especially in South India.On a National level too all these religious dignitaries have their pockets of influencing the masses.
Parthi Baba's modus operandi has been,to openly flaunt his siddhi's(magical tricks) and invite attention to him and his teaching's.Parthi Baba initially won over the simple devotees like the average middle class families but he was always supported by the influential princely communities like Mysore Maharaja Families,Venkatagiri Maharaja Families,Landlord's,Political Personages especially politicians like Prime Ministers,Presidents,Chief Ministers,and international celebrities.
Parthi Baba ensures that he be the eye of all controversies so that he will get publicity.In fact just the opposite he does what he preaches.How can one have double standards?When people question him,he gives some ridiculous answeres that you feel extremely uncomfortable.When Peddapa Venkappa Raju questioned his son Sathya Narayana Raju as to who he is prompt reply was he is Baba from Shirdi re-incarnated.But in the recent Times of India interview when asked about the Shirdi Baba connection,Parthi Baba cooly has given reply that this body has not seen the Baba from Shirdi????So was he lying to his father then or is he lying to the reporters now???
In my opinion,Parthi Baba possessed some powers initially like a Pyschic which he had no control over,he was more like a Zombie and like a Robot went about doing things.I suspect the Princely class of people to have their share of importance promoted Parthi Baba.In a remote corner of the world Puttaparthi got transformed into a pilgrimage centre for which the credit goes to Parthi Baba no one else.But to equate himself to Lord Rama,Lord Krishna,Lord Shirdi Sai Baba,Lord Jesus Christ,Lord Allah,Lord Guru Nanak,Lord Mahavira,Lord Buddha,is heights of fancy.Indians by and large fall for this heady mix and now i realise its not only indians but also other country people have this weaknesses.
Parthi Baba is targetting an audience who want GOD to be alive and kicking.For people who have been inspired by reading Holy Books,hearing Holy Puranas,he tries to be an imitation of those great masters who came down to earth to redeem us.We simply have to accept that even though Exposes of Parthi Baba have been going on for the last 30 - 40 Years,Parthi Baba is going on with his Game.As long as people want to see god in action Parthi Baba will role play this part.Even though he is acting and he very well knows that,he is simply driven by the passion of his motives and belives them too.
When you read his discourse i found it extremely ODD as to why would an avatar even question or pose to people"You cannot know me;today you will say one thing and tomorrow you will say another;your bhakthi is not deep rooted;" so he is pre-supposing that skeptics will question him and he has only tried to pre-empt them.With uncanny knack of a mass psychologist i feel Parthi Baba has been,and continues to take people for a ride.
So how do you bring such a deadly person to court of law?On the surface it looks like an impossible task.But with the grace god it will be done.People from all countries should unite especially those who have realised what Parthi Baba has been doing regarding Un-Natural affinity towards Male Devotee's and prove with Hard Evidence that Parthi Baba is not what he claims.People especially Local people should be galvanised and American & Indian Goverment should extend all support to bring Parthi Baba to books.
Andries 468 09-07-2001 07:06 AM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 08:07 AM
An outsider's (Sharon, ex-member of Eckankar) view of SSB" Hey, you know what's disgusting? That slimy perv Sai Baba!!! Honestly, it's basically the same as e-kult, except evidently the guy *has* done some "good" things in the "social service" area, but fer crissakes, he's a child molester!!! "
from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/852
Beth 467 09-07-2001 04:02 AM
Thank you again for sharing Terrie. I think I probably would have had exactly the same experience as you, had I gone to India. Yes, I think you were lucky that you were protected and insulated. I feel completely "cured" in these last few days thanks to talking with all of you and reading the articles that I hadn't read yet. Now I have no doubt about what is the right way for me... That void feeling is there in me, but just as in Andries poem , I feel set free (and really happy about it). In fact that was my very first reaction after I heard the allegations, after the initial shock...I felt like a huge weight had been lifted off of me.
Andries 466 09-07-2001 01:39 AM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 01:42 AM
Broken DreamAn illusion shattered, a broken dream.
Oh ... that the morning brings the sun.
Gone are the days when I could bounce right back again.
See how the tears flow down like sweet summer rain,
where does it leave me now, I found my self so free again.
Even the slightest memory of satsang opens the floodgates and I am helpless. Now as the moonlight shadow dances across my room, only the group's words are heard in the night, only a silent prayer I never knew liberation could hurt so well.Somewhere there's good Souls praying, somewhere far away. With words of healing they bless me. Out of the dark I stumble, into the light, only my fear has tumbled. I think I always knew there was hope for me and you.Over the hill the sun rises to greet a brand new day, I face my memories with one last goodbye, I will continue to heal, I'll take my heart and let it fly.Randy CableThis poem is dedicated to recovering ex-eckists and property of eckankartruth egroup.
(I thought that this was appropriate here too and I have Randy's permission to post it. David C. Lane, the host of discussion about SSB, is an ex-member of the Eckankar NRM/cult)
Terrie 465 09-07-2001 12:27 AM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 12:34 AM
Ref #463, Beth,Well, I'm talking a lot tonight too, Beth. You asked about our experiences of sb at the ashram. You know, we only see him at darshan unless we get an interview. I never did. I think that what surprised me the most is that during darshan I never experienced anything at all...no "love" or strong energy (except once for a split second when he gave me a powerful direct look),....except that weird vibration of sexual energy, not very strong in my case, but it was there.
Mostly I'd be surprised at all the pushing and rudeness by the women sitting around me. It all seemed like a rehersed drama...this little bright orange figure comes floating in somehow (because of the lighting in the mandir) seeming to glow.
There were clues: the bright gold sun chariot that sb rides in sometimes; The golden ceiling in the mandir; the red velvet carpet that appeared in recent years that the seva dals unrolled for the divine feet of the avatar. (I wondered why would "God" want to walk on a red carpet?)
He walks around, takes a few letters, says a few words to the ladies and then goes over to the gents' side...where he usually stayed a long time. No, I was oblivious to anything else...except once for a few seconds I was never really close to him. Now I see that as a protection. Thinking back I'd say I was almost completely insulated from the energy of sb at the ashram. The effect was much stronger at home.
Terrie 464 09-07-2001 12:09 AM
Edited by author 09-07-2001 12:14 AM
O.K. Hari and anyone else, I'd be happy to hear how the teachings or actions of other modern day Gurus help us to see what is wrong with sb. Dennis would also welcome posts about great saints and how they have directly affected their disciples.
But going back to Buddha, Jesus, Krishna...the whole reason that Dennis has posted about a modern day guru is that we can see his actions NOW. They are recorded by disciples who are still living. The ancient great ones have receded into history and myth. We can't point to any disciple who can tell us how he/she interacted with Jesus or Krishna.
So any living disciples of one of India's great ones...I'd personally love to hear from you. Dennis has described how Yogananda affected the kundalini energy of his disciples, for example. No follower of sb has ever described any similar experiences. Are there any similar experiences out there from disciples of other modern day gurus?
I personally feel that it is very relevant to any discussion about sb to understand WHO or WHAT a real guru (one who has attained union with God) IS.
Beth 463 09-07-2001 12:02 AM
"SB DOES NOT ACT RIGHT...his behavior, his manners, his demeanor...
What I meant by this is that I have never been in the presense of SB...never been to PN and so I do not have the experiences that all of you have with him...so I am relying on you to tell me "are my feelings about him off? I sense that there is a "rudeness" , a cockiness, an aloofness, a ridiculing quality about him...a contempt sometimes towards human beings...Has any one actually experienced this with him? I know Kyra has..I read her post about it... and I'm grateful to hear that from another woman. No one I know would probably ever admit that openly and out loud.
Also, I was very stunned by that dream story on the sunrise site...inner planes section...called My Prohetic Dream by William Weed. Anyway...I have had feelings like that about sb...(and felt ashamed of myself for it...until now) and wonder if anyone else has.
Anyway...I'm sorry everyone...I know I'm talking a lot...this is therapeutic for me I guess. I needed to talk this out and get some closure. I think I have accomplished that just in the last few days here on the board. I've gotten a lot more clarity. Thank you everybody !!
Beth 462 09-06-2001 11:38 PM
To Kyra...
yes, thank you Kyra for posting that about P. Krystal etc... I met her years ago and she is a level headed, seemingly kind, gentle woman. I had to know what was going on with her regarding all of this. She is one of the few long time devotees that I know (from a distance) and whom I would trust.
Hari Sampath 461 09-06-2001 11:34 PM
Edited by author 09-06-2001 11:36 PM
To Terrie :Please read carefully what I wrote. I merely said that ALL posts here need to have a SB relevance, whether expose, or healing or compared to some guru , in that we can see SB to be a fake.
I still insist that this is not a board for promoting or even discussing ANY guru, whether it is Yogananda or anyone else.
As far as I understand the topic of this board, it has been clearly stated.
Perhaps Dennis just posted a small message now, and I certainly didn't comment on anyone specific... but Yogananda is the most mentioned name on this board among other gurus.
Agreed, that one bad guru doesn't make everyone bad.... but the issue here is whether this is the place for such discussion ?
If you look at the archives of this board, there are dozens of long winded Yogananda posts ( Dennis has since stopped posting these).
I enjoy all of Dennis' posts on all boards, especially the miracles posts lately. I am sure he himsef wouldn't think I am saying he is "pushing yogananda". But my ( and Tony's ) concern is quite simple, why at all discuss another guru ? If each poster says his/her guru is the best standard to compare with SB, we would only have a board with 100 opinions on 100 gurus, and would stray from the topic of SB, as a result.
And as to your query that we need some standard to compare a guru with and Yogananda is best suited, I respectfully disagree. Of course I am from India , raised to respect spiritual teachers, but then in India Yogananda is practically unheard of, nor does anyone consider him an Acharya or Guru. It is only in the west, and that too in certain pockets it is there.
In India, people like Ramana Maharishi, Shirdi Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, etc are widely accepted and folowed, in recent times.
If you go back a few centuries, Great souls like Adi Sankara, Ramanuja, etc were accepted and followed.
In any case SB says he is Lord Rama , and Lord Krishna, so if at all if we are to compare him with a standard to see why he is lying, it would have to be Lord Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus etc.
Hari SampathTerrie 460 09-06-2001 11:24 PM
Edited by author 09-06-2001 11:26 PM
Ref # 435, Beth, you said:"the "attitude", the condesending, abusive treatment toward the boys that bothers me...it's the manipulating,the "contol", the threatening, along with the heavy feeling of lust that one gets when reading these accounts. These are the things that I sense about ssb. Am I wrong?"
No, I don't think so! Your feminine intuition is working very well, it seems to me.
"I can't help it...I FEEL SOMETHING that I DO NOT LIKE."I really felt that way after becoming an ex-devotee. Just something very repulsive and...ugly. It took a while for that feeling to leave. Maybe it's still there, but I drew away from it.
"SB DOES NOT ACT RIGHT...his behavior, his manners, his demeanor etc...do not reflect a refined, high being. Am I right or wrong about this?"
Of course you are right....at least those of us who are ex-devotees would totally agree with you. As I've often said, devotees are wrapped in a kind of illusionary insulation, and not until they're ex-devotees are the blinders removed. A lot of light seems to have leaked through your blinders, Beth!
Terrie 459 09-06-2001 11:14 PM
Edited by author 09-06-2001 11:15 PM
I am really amazed at the negative reaction from Tony and Hari to one short post by Marswalker which mentions Yogananda. Especially you, Hari...born and raised in India where the Guru lineage is sacred. We have to have SOME standard to compare so-called gurus with, and there isn't a better person for comparison than Yogananda.
Just because this is the age of the "bad guru" doesn't mean that we should discard the entire concept of gurus, sacred through the ages in India. I think you guys are out of bounds in your criticism of Marswalker's post. He wasn't pushing Yogananda! He was giving one statement, which by the way, Beth appreciated.
Terrie 458 09-06-2001 11:06 PM
Ref #436, Beth,"I feel for you regarding your daughter ( I have a daughter too...my only child). I do hope (and do believe) that she will come home some day soon and forget all this."
Thank you, Beth, for your thoughts. It would indeed be a miracle if she saw the light, but I don't know if she would want to come back to the U.S. She seems to have a true Indian heart!
Terrie 457 09-06-2001 11:01 PM
Ref #450
Thanks, Kyra, for reposting that message. I think it was Beth who was asking about sai org officers such as Phyllis Krystal. I just hate to think of Phyllis dying while still under the spell of sb. I attended one of her workshops some years ago and she really was a classy lady.
But funny....I remember not feeling very inspired by the workshop and getting very tired as the day went on. Even with a dedicated person like Phyllis Krystal that old ssb energy was reaching all of us. Before you appeard on the boards some of us were talking about how tired we felt when we were devotees.
Balaraman Suresh 456 09-06-2001 06:25 PM
I think,i am not sure, it means 'puritanical'.But i must compliment Terrie and Marswalker otherwise my interest in Paramahamsa Yogananda would not have been kindled.Thanks guys.
Re: Deletions 455 09-06-2001 05:02 PM
Ref #453
"It has a peurile flavour to it."Couldn't find this word (peurile) in the Webster dictionary. Tony, give us a definition of the word. What does it mean?
Tony, no one says you have to hang around on this board. There's lots of other discussion boards out there. Hari is doing a terrific job of carrying the expose side of the board.
No offense meant, Tony, but we're all individuals and have a right to our views...and our deletions. I know you've also been deleted from the Yahoo board for replying to off-topic posts. My apologies for what you think are unfair deletions. Today's Board AdministratorHari Sampath 454 09-06-2001 04:35 PM
I too think that we don't need a lot of other gurus here on this board. As I understand it, if it is relevant to point out some specific position of a renowned guru that shows SB to be a fraud, perhaps it is okay in a limited sense.
But my understanding of this board is, discussion of SB's crime, pedophilia, murder, trickery, fraud etc, as well as a forum for exchanging views on how ex devotees are processing the transition away from sb.
Anything else would be somewhat irrelevant. Tony, there is a need to have a certain amount of moderation on this board, otherwise it will go the David Lane board route.
Thanks,Hari Sampath.Tony O'Clery 453 09-06-2001 04:15 PM
Actually this site is over censored, in my opinion. It has a peurile flavour to it. Sorry grow up.
Tony O'Clery 452 09-06-2001 04:01 PM
Why is Yogananda pushed here so much? What has he to do with sb?
Kyra Kitts 451 09-06-2001 02:17 PM
Dear Terrie,Your insights re out-of-control kundalini are fascinating. It rings quietly true.
There's a book I haven't read, but which is still in print, by Lee Sanella MD on his research on kundalini, including case histories. It's on my bookshelf with the many "to be read when I have time" books. If anyone's read the Sanella book, does it say anything about out-of-control kundalini and consequent voracious sexuality?
Love, KyraKyra Kitts 450 09-06-2001 02:12 PM
Ref #421Dear Terrie,I'm still around :)Here's the post you mentioned: Dear loveandjyothi, I reread your post and am deeply grateful to you for bringing up the issues you discussed. In your words: <The vast majority of devotees are kind, good, <spiritual, compassionate people, though once a <devotee becomes an ex-devotee usually <communication is severed regardless of <the length of the relationship...This really <leaves the ex-devotee "high and dry."
How true this is. We ex-devotees are indeed for the most part left "high and dry", almost immediately expunged from the realities of our devotee friends. Their genuine compassion and love are masked by the fear, in my opinion, of losing the spiritual paradigm they've believed in for so long. We ex-devotees are uncomfortable metaphorical whispers of deeply or scarcely buried awareness of the truth about sb.
No one wants to be cast adrift on the spiritual ocean without a lifeboat, devotee or ex-devotee. Somehow, though, when we step into full acknowledgement of sb's out-of-control sexual predator nature, we DO find other, better lifeboats to carry us across the ocean of samsara.
<"I have the greatest difficulty, however,
<working up empathy for those organizational <leaders who have known for years what is going on <and stand by and do nothing, and continue to
<promote sb....These people are somehow harder for <me to forgive than sb himself....So many are in the health professions and know this pattern of behavior so well. Why can't they recognize it?..."
loveandjyothi, this seemingly deliberate obtuseness by people who should know better saddens me too. I ran into confronting it directly with no success as follows.
Besides the fellow I mentioned who'd been sexually molested by sb and had his life ruined, I also knew directly of another handsome young man, a Chilean, who sb unsuccessfully tried to molest.
Disgusted, I phoned, in turn, Joy Thomas (when she was still living in Southern California), Phyllis Krystal, and Wilma Bronkey. I was as polite and tactful as I knew how to be, asked each of these women if they were aware of the molestations, and if so, what they thought of the issue.
Joy Thomas was a lovely person to speak with. It was clear that she believed from her heart that sb was innocent of any wrongdoing and gave me the old "he's your mirror" story. I couldn't take offense, though. She was sincere and kind, and only meant well. Phyllis Krystal was equally gracious. A truly classy lady. She said that she'd heard of the "rumors" but honestly didn't know what to make of them. I was left impressed with her gentility and truthfulness. From what I've read recently I nw gather that she did try to ask sb about the molestation issue, so I can only credit her. Wilma Bronkey, on the other hand, began yelling at me over the phone in fury. Pure devotee dogma and rage. I slipped into reactivity at that point and mentioned that she might consider removing her cranium from shadier climes, so to speak, and hung up on her.
I called her back later to apologize for my language but that the issue of sb's sexual depravity was too serious to be ignored. I was answered with "I'm used to hearing from people like you and I've learned to ignore you all." Then she hung up on me. It left me wondering just how many people "you all" refered to...
I tried calling Sam Sandweiss, and his wife very politely told me that he was in India.
At that point I just let the issue drop and worked on my own inner healing.
From time to time after that, a few ex-devotee friends who in my opinion reactively embraced fundamentalist Christianity post-sb would call me up and try to convert me to the latest one true way.
Again, I mean offense to no one. I can only tell of my own experience in the hopes that it helps others. Thank you again for writing, loveandjyothi, and do feel free to contact me.
Deletions 449 09-06-2001 01:33 PM
Edited by author 09-06-2001 02:07 PM
We have a good discussion going here and want to stay on topic. Off-topic distractions will be deleted. Sorry, we won't accept posts on this board from an alias sssb.
For logic_guy's post about cults, please go to this board: http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/xGc5TzRrJmP7
It's the same post that he put here.Beth 448 09-06-2001 01:27 PM
Marswalker...I can't quite find the words that I want to express, but you are starting to hit on it...."A true guru or avatar always sets a standard for those on a lower level of spiritual attainment"
I don't care what kind of excuses come out of PN, you cannot expect nice, clean, well-meaning, good people to follow someone embroiled in such ugly controversy...and continue to ask them to "hold on" and have faith. This is NOT a test of faith in SB. This is a test to see who is going to stand up for "righteousness" in the world...who has the courage to expose perverse, immoral and dishonest actions in the world.
I agree with Tony...stay away from Gurus !!! 447 09-06-2001 01:26 PM
SUNRISE 442 09-06-2001 11:52 AM
Via the e-mail grapevine, we've learned the identity of the author of the third document on A Clear View. We have sent this person some posts from this board where his article was mentiond. It will be interesting to see if he posts a reply here. He has the perfect opportunity for the type of defence Beth asked for.
Terrie 441 09-06-2001 11:31 AM
Beth, it can be rather ugly at the ashram. Everyone always says that PN is like a mental institution, everything bad in people is churned up and comes to the top. All our karma is being burned up by the goodness of the avatar! One very agreeable devotee told me that she had vicious fights with her husband. This is someone who doesn't like even a small argument. I myself got furious with my husband a few times over small matters, and on my last visit felt sick and depressed.
What none of us considered is that if sb himself is a slave to his uncontrolled desires and linked to a darker force which gives him his powers, and he is the center of the ashram, everyone who visits will partake of his "vibration."
There is a false "glitter" to the ashram, however. In India the sun shines almost constantly, people are expecting to be in bliss, so some feel they are happy. But the women shove and push to be ahead in darshan. They gossip in the food lines and in the canteen. They complain. They push and shove to be ahead in the shops. Some people look very unhappy. The single women are looking for mates given to them by the "avatar."
Once my room was next to one of the VIP ladies, an attractive woman obviously very rich, decked out in a beautiful silk sari and fine jewelry. My door happened to be open when an ashram official stopped by. Her complaints were loud, "How does Swami expect me to stay in a room like this??!! There is only one small table. The bathroom isn't clean. There's no place to put anything...etc..."
The official practically kissed the ground. "I'm so sorry madam. I'll talk to Swami. We'll rectify the situation immediately." (The lady was given a VIP room somewhere else.)
This is all I can say this morning in reply to your posts, Beth. I'll have more time this evening. Thanks so much for posting your thoughts and intuitive feelings on the board.
Love,
TerrieMarsWalker108 440 09-06-2001 11:26 AM
Dear Beth,I would like to paraphrase Paramahansa Yogananda who I consider a ture satguru of modern times in a message to you. A true guru or avatar always sets a standard for those on a lower level of spiritual attainment. We cannot justify the sexual behavior of SSB. He is not who who claims to be. Let us not forget that he claims to be an avatar of Krishna and Rama and the Father who sent Jesus Christ on earth!!!
Love, Dennis J HanischBeth 439 09-06-2001 05:29 AM
Geezzz the more I read on the websites, the UGLIER this picture gets.
I don't know what to say...I think every devotee needs to read all of this and open their eyes.
Beth 438 09-06-2001 01:41 AM
It may be that a true Godman is a paradox, never to be understood by human intelligence, sometimes taking on the form of purity and light and benevolence, sometimes taking on the form of the "evil" destroyer..darkness...
I think I'm too tired tonight to get into an analysis of this...LOL...better shut up.
TRUTH is paradoxical...that's what my first spiritual teacher told me.
Beth 437 09-06-2001 01:19 AM
Terrie, I agree that Mr. Awle is a baby devotee compared with the others ... He's still enthralled. I've been around since 1985... too long for me. I also sense that he has embellished his story with regards to what other gurus have said about him. How does anyone prove these statements.
Beth 436 09-06-2001 01:07 AM
Terrie,
I feel for you regarding your daughter ( I have a daughter too...my only child). I do hope (and do believe) that she will come home some day soon and forget all this.
Beth 435 09-06-2001 01:01 AM
Dear Hari and All,
I suspect that Ram Das Awle would answer your questions with "If it was for their karmic good, I would trust the Avatar implicitly."
I read this article several months ago (Ram Das Awle) and thought it was the best and most articulate answer to my questions about sexual allegations that I've heard so far from any devotee. However, these are thoughts that I myself, and many others, had and considered BEFORE finally rejecting this theory. And these thoughts are the rationalizations that devotees are using to defend the actions of ssb.
Although I have not completely rejected this theory,it seems that when reading the accounts of the boys and young men, that it is not the sexual nature of the acts that bothers me, it is the demeanor (?) (I can't find the right words, excuse me), the "attitude", the condesending, abusive treatment toward the boys that bothers me...it's the manipulating,the "contol", the threatening, along with the heavy feeling of lust that one gets when reading these accounts. These are the things that I sense about ssb. Am I wrong? I have never met him. And I do not believe and will not accept the fact that that feeling, that "sense" that I get about Baba is a "projection" of my owm mind.
Alot of us are "intuitives", (mostly the women but men are not exempt from this ability either) and I get quite accurate "intuitive" senses about things, situations and people which I know are NOT coming from my own projections, but are "clear senses" of what is "really" happening. I know that Kyra, Terrie and others have these same abilities and we cannot ignore or brush aside these strong intuitive senses anymore with intellectual rationalizations.
I can't help it...I FEEL SOMETHING that I DO NOT LIKE. I have felt it for many years but brushed it aside. I cannot ignore my inner feelings. And my inner experiences are now being backed up by experiences that other women have had "in person" with sb.I am more than willing to once again accept the Avatar if I find out that I am wrong in my judgement...But for now, I do feel that something is not right.
SB DOES NOT ACT RIGHT...his behavior, his manners, his demeanor etc...do not reflect a refined, high being. Am I right or wrong about this? (I've had dreams that have shown me this)And I've heard how horribly rude the people are around him at the ashram. It seems that a person would be tipped off right away that something is not right, by how it "feels" being at the ashram and being in his presence. I get a feeling that it's not really very pleasant there at all (PN). Kyra's postings (and others) have backed that feeling up for me.
Terrie 434 09-06-2001 12:21 AM
Edited by author 09-06-2001 12:23 AM
Ref #431
The comments by Dennis and myself about Yogananda are on Sunrise on the Discussion Board page. The link to the article is near the bottom of the page. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Ref #433
Great way of making your point, Hari! I hope Ram Das Awle and the devotee author of Document #3 see your post.
Hari Sampath 433 09-05-2001 10:54 PM
Edited by author 09-05-2001 10:54 PM
Ref msg 428 :Dear Terrie and all,This Ram Das Awle rationalisation of SB's crimes is perhaps the best thing that could have happened to the expose.
It is extremely significant to note that ALL of Ram Das' statements are his own, and NOT ONE statement has been corroborated by SB himself.
If this "explanation" by Ram Das indeed has any validity at all, then this can only happen if SB himself says so. As SB is adamantly denying the factual truth of these sexual encounters, the question of Ram Das' explanations do not arise at all.
In fact it seems like SB himself is the biggest stumbling block to any follower "accepting" the pathetic attempts of Ram Das to "explain" SB's crimes.
If "everything is God" and "God is already having all the sex in the universe, so what is a little extra" , according to Ram Das, I have two questions for Ram Das.
1. Since "everything is God and omnipresent" would Ram Das ( god) allow SB ( the avatar) to have sex with his son ( or loved one ) who is again god, in front of 40,000 devotees ( gods) in Poornachandra hall ( heaven, since all gods reside here) ?
2. Since "god" is already having all the sex in the world, would Ram Das ( god) consider allowing his wife ( god) to have sex ( divine act) with a few other men ( gods) if they want to do so publicly ( since divinity is the only eternal witness) ?
If Ram Das truly believes in his "all gods, so all sex is okay", then we all may assume that he would be okay for these two questions too ( after all he too is god), and I am god too !!
This highlights the ridiculous position of Ram Das' arguments, by stretching his theory to the extremes.
Some arguments are best highlighted as pathetic only in this fashion, and indeed they deserve no better .
Hari SampathTony O'Clery 432 09-05-2001 10:51 PM
putaipan I don't know whether you understand that Brahmaloka is still within the mind, of Saguna Brahman. It is not Nirguna Brahman. So an Avatar cannot be at the same stage as a Jivanmukti who has no mind after merging in Nirguna. Because these bhodisattvas let the monkey people,( humans), worship them, is only to help them, knowing that they would never understand the advaita or Nirguna.....ONS.....Tony.
Balaraman Suresh 431 09-05-2001 10:15 PM
Dear Terrie,
Ref #429 regarding clarification on Parmahamsa Yogananda,what clarification you and dennis gave,could you please tell which post number.I seem to have missed reading that.Thanks.
putaipan 430 09-05-2001 09:34 PM
meester o'cleary- i know you were burned once, but your
current denial of the term/concept of the Avatar is really embare-assing. i dunno...consult the gita again. you know... "when the wick of righteousness burns low...". zoroaster,
rama,krisna,buddha,jesus mohammed.the examples you site are wonderful men who grew to God, but occasionally God comes to us...the Avatar. this notion of the Avatar still posses- sing mind, i dunno where you got it,and it may help you deal with the betrayal you experinced, but it ain't right.
Terrie 429 09-05-2001 09:26 PM
Edited by author 09-05-2001 09:30 PM
By the way, Document #2 on the Clear View site, "Potent Evidence," is filled with lies about modern masters who supposedly endorsed sb as the avatar of the age. Marswalker and I have presented the evidence regarding Paramahansa Yogananda, but Ram Das Awle, the author of the site, has not removed the false statements from his document. This reveals the moral stature of Mr. Awle.
Mr. Awle, by the way, states that he's been a devotee for 4 1/2 years. That makes him an infant devotee compared to some of us who post on this board. I claim 25+ years as a devotee.
Terrie 428 09-05-2001 09:09 PM
Edited by author 09-05-2001 09:15 PM
Here is the reference for the article by the devotee explaining his reaction to the abuse allegations against sb: http://www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com/index3.html
(Thanks, Suresh, I took it from the other board where you posted it.)
Here's a paragraph from that article:"What I find very amusing is that people are getting so upset about sex. Since God is omnipresent, isn't He already having all the sex in the universe? What's the big deal? What's a little sex compared to the truly horrible aspects of God's play throughout history?
"Didn't Krishna do his best to convince Arjuna to commit fratricide? Sex is nothing compared to the incredible anguish and hardship the Mahabharata war surely left in its wake! I'm sure Krishna was the ideal charioteer, angling the vehicle in just the right way so that Arjuna could get good killing angles for his arrows. And think of the wounding shots, the warriors left to die slowly in the heat of the day." (end of quote)
....And how's that for the circular reasoning of a devotee? Love,
TerrieTerrie 427 09-05-2001 08:53 PM
Ref #425, #426
Dennis and Suresh: Thanks for these interesting posts. They show that there are other explanations for Parthi baba's "miracles," and that just because we don't personally see astral entities doesn't mean they aren't right there beside us and working with sb at the ashram or helping devotees when little "miracles" happen in their lives.
SB may control and dictate to many of these entities. When were were devotees, there were unexplained coincidences in our lives. But...you know, this type of coincidence happens in everyone's life.
Balaraman Suresh 426 09-05-2001 05:57 PM
Marswalker :Parthi Baba has captive spirit's under his control,which can do tricks or create an illusion or mesmerise a mass audience.Sometimes even the sense organs like ears,nose,eyes are controlled or altered.Its more like a vice grip that your mind will be.Parthi Baba was supposed to have learnt this from his trip to Kerala,South India.
MarsWalker108 425 09-05-2001 05:29 PM
Ref 406 Dear Terrie,I have had an experience in my own life which seems to give credence to your theory that ssb,s kundalini may be out of control.
During a tour of duty in the US Army at Ft Lewis, Washington,1961, a metaphysical friend took me to a spiritualistic type of church in Seattle. The young man (now deceased) who was minister of the church and a truimphet medium had paranormal powerrs wherein during a seance in the dark, he would go into trance, entities supposedly from the astral world with lights on their bodies would appear and talk to us, truimphets would move about the room and other phenomana would occur. The above was observed from time to time by scientific observers using infrared light. The entities would use a substance called ectoplasm taken from the medium which was supposedly half physical and half etheric, as I recall. This medium was very controversal. He seemed not to be control of his sexual energies. In fact, he was put in prison in the State of Washington for some years for sexually molesting a minor. I distinctly remember some of us duscussing the theory that maybe he had lost control of his kundalini force. Anyone can e-mail me at marswalker108@hotmail.com for futher questions about my experiences.
Love, Dennis J HanischHari Sampath 424 09-05-2001 03:58 PM
Edited by author 09-05-2001 04:01 PM
ref 423 :Tony ,Hear ! Hear !!That's all there is to it.All the "remote phenomena" are a resultant of individuals devotions and an inner higher reality.
All physical phenomena done by SB himself are tricks, sometimes caught, sometimes not.
Hari Sampath.Tony O'Clery 423 09-05-2001 03:30 PM
Dr Sam Siva, All this has been answered ad nauseum, re sb's conjuring tricks and people's identification with events being sb. When it could also have been humpty dumpty. People mistake him for their own higher mind that's all, and he knows that for he tells them to image. Then the devotees imagination sees sb everywhere, even retroavtively. Like Al Drucker and the SS Officer who advised him to leave Germany, and saved his life. Poor old Al couldn't accept that it was an SS Officer, so he made him into sb. Mind tricks on themselves.
Sam you are an expert at conning yourself.Dr. Sabapathy Siva 422 09-05-2001 02:47 PM
Dear Dennis:SAI MIRACLES:You did admit to Sai's paranormal powers which you didn't wish to share and yet being doubtful in miracles. I tend to trust the ones who have experienced miracles than the one who has seen such videos and criticise, be he may be a Prof.or a magician,.
As you are well aware, Sai miracles are multi various and have been occuring all over the world for decades and they are NOT just materialisation of tinsell and trash like watches, jwellery etc. They present themselves spontaneuosly in different locations both near and far, in a gathering or one on one encounter. They've been published in various books which I am sure you are aware of. Vibuthi materialisation is NOT unique to Sai only. Many enlightened souls in India have done so in the past and even today some are accomplishing the same. So it isn't a big deal. Typically in a darshan Sai materialises vibuthi more than once, goes into interview room and during the interview he latterialises vibuthi most of the time and other objects like jwellery, watch, lingam, pendent, japamala, liquid ghee, amirth, hot sweets, a photo, cedit card, money at times, a live object, etc. All occur in succession within a short time during which time he is with one or more close attendents. Do you mean to say that he is hiding these in his sleeves/hand and deliver them..?? Come on Dennis, pl.be a fare participant. Some write that he hides objects under his chair. It is the most ludicrous explanation I've ever read. How do you explain such miracles like vibuthi, kumkum, amirth, etc. materialing around the world.?? How do you explain the crucifix given Hislop.? How do you account for the 108 beed japamala he pulled out of his open palm in the presence of several devotees and gave it Mrs.Reyes which mala I saw it.?? How do you account saving Issac, Dr.Ghadia, Connie Larson from dying accidents.? Pl.don't tell me that all are lies. How do you account for his translocation, bi location, transfiguration etc.? How do you account for his control of nature.? I can vouche for this from my uncle's personal experience who was in charge of the construction company which built the hosp.in P.Parthi. Space and time do not permit to go on. Pl.read 'INSPIRED MEDICINE' by Judy Warner.I wish to see the critics being fare and reasonable, esp.the ex devotees who knows the history and life of Sai. Ironically, most of us are being or were drawn to Sai b/c of his miracles. They have been powerful tool for most including, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, Joshua, Guru Nanak, Krishna, etc. Pontius Pilate longed to see Jesus' miracles. Why.? But for resurrection of Jesus, the greatest miracle, there won't be Christianity. Each Master wether Avatar or not, accomplish their mission DIFFERENTLY ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN TIME AND PERIOD. For the current MATERIALSTIC ERA the mundane Sai miracles are perfectly appropriate. If you just stop with the materialistic value of the miracles, that is human error. He takes you through those trash to tranquility and training to to liberate you and me. More latter.
THE GREATEST MIRACLE OF SAI IS THE TRANSFORMATION OF HUMAN BEINGS. With regards,Sam.Terrie 421 09-05-2001 12:58 PM
Does anyone have the post by Kyra where she talks about her phone conversations with Phyllis Krystal and other sai officers? It was on this board. Kyra, if you're around, could you re-post that message? It was originally posted on the Yahoo board.
Terrie 420 09-05-2001 12:01 PM
Ref #417
Yes, Mrs. Pushpa from Suresh's QT site (noted by Andries in #417) is a firm and devoted disciple of ssb. Scroll back to her first post where she says that sb has the right to have sex if he wants it. Her posts give a reasonably good picture of the mind of a dedicated devotee.
Terrie 419 09-05-2001 11:13 AM
Edited by author 09-05-2001 11:15 AM
Ref #415
Dear Beth,
My devotee daughter's explanation to me is, "I'm not going to listen to picky-picky rumors about sb. Only small minds listen to rumors. Why don't you put your mind to better use by studying and following the teachings? The teachings are what matter. How could anyone who teaches such high values abuse children? I have seen no spiritual development in you the whole time you've been a devotee!" (meaning I'm one of the "small minds.")
She will not read letters from me re: the allegations and refuses to check the Internet sites. In her case at least, it's a case of, "I'm not going to look."
Another man's explanation is on Part 3 of the saibabaand sex-a clear view site. I know that devotee. He used to come to a ssb center we both belonged to. Anyone, do you have he URL for that site?
(I know who the author is because he sent a defense to a mutual friend who shared the letter with me.)
For Beth 418 09-05-2001 11:05 AM
Beth, we who are taking care of the board in Anthony's absence would like very much to see sincere replies from devotees defending the allegations against sb. But so far no one has come forward on this board with a sincere reasonable explanation.
You saw the spam posts on Monday...how many...25? 30? Why doesn't that person explain why he/she is still a devotee instead of trying to block discussion on the board with posts that have no relationship to the discussion?
Andries has collected 53 reasons why devotees remain dedicated to sb. His article is on Sunrise on the Devotees Speak page.
Sincerely,
Board administratorsAndries 417 09-05-2001 07:00 AM
Edited by author 09-05-2001 08:34 AM
Re: 415, 416 Dear Beth, Doubting Devotees and All,Personally I think devotees should first try to see that they may have a big desire to continue to believe otherwise any rational discussion may be useless. The problem is of course that they have a good reason to continue to believe because it prevents them from a painful disillusionment. Intelligent devotees will come up with countless explanations for the 'calumny' each time different that are in my opinion simply bad excuses. Just as I used to do. See e.g. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Dvwhy-ak.htm
For months I lived in big tension because of the 'calumny' that even affected my ability to concentrate on my work. I didn't share my doubts and problems with other devotees because I didn't want to 'contaminate' them.
SSB commits crimes and cheats that are covered up by his coterie. And who suffers? Not he or his coterie. But his victims and devotees. I don't think I can forgive.
By the way any doubting devotee may be interested to see the discussion beween Terrie, Hari Sampath and Mrs Pushpa that is now going on Balaraman Suresh' board. See http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/xGc5TzRrJmP7/p-1.-1
Kind regards, Andries K.D.Beth 416 09-05-2001 06:32 AM
It is time for those in high positions in the Sai Organization to please have an open dialogue with other former devotees who want to understand why, in the face of such evidence, you remain devotees. Please, I am sincere, Iam not critisizing...I sincerely wish to hear from the intelligent ones out there who still follow...
Phyllis Krystal...I have met you...you are an intelligent woman...Bob Bozzanni, I have met you also. I really wish to understand. I am sure you have had deeply profound experiences with Baba that are the reason you remain true. But how do you explain this?
Beth 415 09-05-2001 06:23 AM
I would personally like to invite any and all current Sai Baba devotees to please post here to defend and EXPLAIN ...PLEASE...the sexual allegations against Baba. I beg you please come forward if you can defend this with a reasonable explanation.
Whoever is in charge of this board, Anthony ?? please allow sincere responses to remain on the board for at least a little while. Thank you.
Beth 414 09-05-2001 02:47 AM
a Terrie quote <<Kyra, your dream opens up entirely new insights regarding sb. And I wonder if it indicates a shift in the whole sb story. Is the end very near for sb? Thanks for sharing.>>
My feelings exactly...BethTerrie 413 09-05-2001 12:33 AM
Ref #412
Yes, David Blaine is a magician who does tricks "in the street." He's on TV a lot doing fantastic slight of hand tricks in inner city neighborhoods. People are amazed. In the TV program a night or two ago he levitated off the ground with people standing around watching. He always had the group of people watching stand close to each other, and he always turned his back to them to levitate. Some trick there probably that we don't know about.
Balaraman Suresh 412 09-04-2001 08:16 PM
Edited by author 09-04-2001 08:59 PM
Hello Tony,
Who is David Blaine?Is he a magician?A Sparrow 411 09-04-2001 06:48 PM
Yeah, David Blaine is something else!Kyra, your dream fascinated me. You're so right that we must find it within ourselves to forgive him. It's really a compulsion that comes with the territory of having his power. I remember when I was a dev and had heard a few rumors; I would think that it was impossible for a man of his fully realized status to be bothered by sexual needs. I had read accounts of much lesser spiritual luminaries (I thought) who claimed to have transcended their libidos. Now I realize he just isn't that high. His energy is probably mostly centered in the 2nd and 3rd chakras.
I doubt that he will change in this life, unless he voluntarilly gives up his powers.
The best way we can help this soul is to expose his deeds. That's the only thing that will dislodge him from his current situation.
I still wonder from whence some of the miracles came. I'm talking about the things that happened to devotees who were far away; like finding a lost item, synchronistic events, containers of v filling themselves, etc. A) These sort of things really are within his powers B) God answers our prayers no matter what form we imagine him/her to be C) Entities on the astral plane, possibly sb helpers, can cause things to happen.
Of course, leelas happen to people who have never heard of him as well.
Oh, about my oldest son. He was having a lot of problems in his personal life. He went to a psychic/shamaness who gave him a rather long reading. I'm not claiming that his problems were caused by sb. He was never a devotee. One of the things she said was that there was a dark force connected to his family. He didn't tell me that at the time, and if he had, I would have been shocked, as I thought we were doing everything right. No violence or drinking or drug use or anything in the home. Just lots of prayers and bhajans and sai ram the live long day.
Tony O'Clery 410 09-04-2001 05:24 PM
Last night I watched David Blaine do tricks with cards, and evidently read people's minds
He also levitated on demand in any street he happened to be in. No wires no nothing. How I don't know, but he leaves sb for dead in the conjuring business.
Tony O'Clery 409 09-04-2001 05:15 PM
Dr Sam you know better than most how sb does his tricks, they were demonstrated to you in your own home. Wake up and smell the coffee. God doesn't take the form of an individual man, only a saint from the brahmaloka does. All men are god, but if you want to get close to someone who is in union or yoga, it would be a jivanmukti likeShirdi Sai Baba, Ramana Maharshi or Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.
Avatar are somewhat less on the scale than jivanmuktis for they still have a mind.
To Dr. Siva 408 09-04-2001 05:05 PM
Dear Dr. Siva, A letter from you was forwarded to me. You asked why, if I didn't become a Sai Baba devotee because of a letter I received in the mail, I would stop being one because of same. Well, the reason I became a devotee was that I had such an intense longing to know that God was available to people, and the thought that he existed in a human body was very appealing. Because of some dreams and what I thought of as "leelas", whether or not they really were, as well as reading the famous books (Murphett et al), I was seduced.
The letter provided me with a reality check. The hard, cold facts stated in it, as well as in the other accounts on the internet, could never allow me to return to my rosy world of make-believe. Remember that I said I did not know this child or his mother personally, but did know that they were trustworthy people through mutual friends.
I hope that this answers you question satisfactorally.BEWSunrise 407 09-04-2001 04:53 PM
The Snowcrest server seems to be o.k. now. We don't know what was wrong. We complained and they fixed it. We want to put many of the QT posts of the last couple of days on the site....later this week when there's time.
Terrie 406 09-04-2001 04:44 PM
Edited by author 09-04-2001 04:47 PM
Ref #402
Gosh, Kyra, what a dream!! To me it seems to be a very accurate picture of an aspect of sai baba. I've thought to myself many times over the last months that he simply must not have any control at all over his sexual actions. Otherwise, why would he risk everything continuing on a path that can only be destructive?
The golden color of his face, I believe, refers to an active kundalini, which is often referred to as a golden liquid. Suppose we have a Being here who craved power and/or devotees. This would not be a pure being, but one who may have gained a boon from powerful astral beings who did indeed give him the gift of great power. Along with that power went the activated kundalini energy.
If you read the various material on kundalini (some of it is on Sunrise), you see that the powerful energy of kundalini is out of control for one who has not yet earned the spiritual status and purity to handle it. So sb himself has had a lifetime of being completely unable to control the negative side of possessing that energy...the constant craving for sexual gratification with boys and young men.
Think how awful that can be. The body and mind can never rest from the desire for stimulation. It's a form of torture, actually. And to be freed would require that sb himself plead desperately with the real God of the universe for his spiritual freedom.
I myself am not angry or bitter toward sb. I felt nothing but sorrow and compassion when reading your post. And I believe that perhaps the most molested of sb's victims, Conny Larsson, feels the same way. Conny pleads with sb in what seems to be a compassionate way. He does not show anger or hatred in his letters, but asks sb to simply recognize who he is.
But we don't know where sb is coming from today. At the age of 75 years, does he now consider that his craving for power and devotees was not worth the destructive side effects and the great injury caused to others?
And were you seeing the inner spirt (soul) of sb rather than the outer ego-mind and form that resides at Prashanti Nilayam? Is there a complete break between the two?
Another question I've often wondered about is whether sb actually believes that he is God, or whether he's deliberately play acting. Any insights on this?
Kyra, your dream opens up entirely new insights regarding sb. And I wonder if it indicates a shift in the whole sb story. Is the end very near for sb? Thanks for sharing.
Love,
TerrieKyra Kitts 405 09-04-2001 04:03 PM
Dear Suresh,I agree with you completely. What I wrote I feel would be possible under ideal circumstances unlikely to happen short of a miracle, as you say. Still, miracles do happen...one can only pray.
Love, KyraBalaraman Suresh 404 09-04-2001 02:42 PM
Dear Kyra,I agree that you are healing Parthi Baba,frankly if he stops with his perversion,i feel many will acknowledge him back,but according to me he will never ever accept his faults and nor will he permit anybody from his organisation to do that.Parthi Baba thinks he has grown much too big for him to even bother.Unless a miracle by the true god takes place and transforms Parthi Baba.
MarsWalker108 403 09-04-2001 02:38 PM
Dear Dr. Sabapathy Siva,You commented: >>So what is your inference? Some followers of any Master did and do develop a kind of 'attachment ' to their Master. This has been the norm.....As a parent you will only give gifts to your children what they wish or cherish. Your wish and intention is their welfare. In what way SB is different?<<
The point that I'm trying to make is that SSB at least in the "old days" gave certain prominent devotees many many pieces of jewely and other trinkets. I think we need to be careful here. Please note the following quotes from Paramahansa Yogananda as a comparison. From PY's, "Sayings of Yogananda," SRF 1968, p39:
""Most men are interested in miracles and wish to see them. But my Master, Sri Yukteswarji, who had control over all natural forces, held very stern views on the subject. Just before I left India to lecture in America, he said to me: 'Arouse in men the love of God. Don't draw them to you by displays of unusual powers.'"
"If I walked on fire and water, and filled every auditorium in the land with curiosity-seekers, what good would come of it? See the stars, the cloulds, and the ocean; see the mist on the grass. Can any miracle of man compare with these essentially inexplicable phenomena? Even so,few men are led through Nature to love God - the Miracle of all miracles.""
On p 96: "So many come here looking for miracles. But masters do not display the powers God has given them unless He commands them to do so. Most men don't understand that the greatest miracle of all would be the transformation of their lives by humble obdience to his will."
On p 103: "The Lord can do anything; but He knows that man's love and right conduct cannot be bought with miracles."
I recall SSB in his discourses indicating that the number of his miracles would decrease over the years. This reminded me of a saying from America's famous sleeping prophet, Edgar Caycee, who in a reading stated that paranormal powers are gradually lost when abused or used for selfish purposes.
>>As ex or current devotees we have read or heard SB fulfilling the wishes of one or more AT THE SAME TIME by SEEMINGLY to comply with such individual wishes. So it is possible your above conclusion was right after all..unless your magician friend was untruthful..why not..?<<
We are talking here about the magician who attended the first Seattle Sai Center in the early 70's. When he discovered that SSB was faking at least some of the materializations, he left the center. I'm trying to make 2 important points: 1) We had such an intense desire to maintain our belief that SSB was a true avatar that we rationalized away what should have been a major red flag. 2) We now have instances of SSB faking materializations on video. My example occurred in the eary 70's.
>>This is not unusual either. The materialized object disappears for several reasons not b/c it losses its power. The chief reason for disappearence being loss of faith or misbehavior or abuse of the power of the object by the receipient.<<
Let us not forget the question you asked, 'Have you heard of any SB's materialized objects disappearing without a trace?' Now you are saying that it is not unusual for them to dissappear. You give good reasons why they may disappear but what what makes you an authority as to why they may disappear. Yogananda has indicated in his writings that all objects materialized from the astral world must eventually disappear.
My purpose in these posts has been to give evidence that just because one has great parnormal powers does not necessarily mean he/she has spiritual development. I also remember Hislop at a SSB conference stating the same conclusion when talking about his spiritual search. He had encounted the same before he had even met SB. So many people have been swayed by SSB's so-called miracles!!
>>Finally, if ever SB comes to investigation at any time...by any one..I welcome that and look forward as the truth has to be faced whatever they may be..sooner it is accomplished, better for all of us.<<
I commend you for this statement. The truth must serve us all!
Love, Dennis J Hanisch
Kyra Kitts 402 09-04-2001 02:34 PM
Dear All,A few weeks ago I dreamt of Sai Baba. He hasn't appeared in any of my dreams for years. He was lying down in front of me, looking up at me. His face was shining golden and he looked deeply tired. He said to me simply "Help me. I can't control myself." It was clear that he was refering to his pedophilia. Then I put my hands on his torso to give him love and healing. That was the entire dream.
For those reading this who find and excessive use of "I", "my", "me", and other indicators of pomposity, please forgive me. None is intended. My words are written from the heart, and the language of the heart, in my opinion, can be difficult to express through the instrument of language.
I've been thinking a lot about that dream and recently I understood it. Whether viewed as an actual appearance by Sai Baba or as a metaphor the meaning is the same.
It's Consciousness that creates the leelas; that same Consciousness of which Sai Baba is a manifestation. It's a great Cosmic Joke that in order to stop running away from developing inner compassion to its fullest we have to be able to look at the abusive teacher/shadow teacher and say:
"I forgive you for hurting me. I forgive you for being a pedophile. I am not angry at you. I still love you, even though you are causing pain to other beings. I will help you in a loving manner by speaking openly of your molestations so that you can no longer get away with molesting young men and boys. That behavior makes you no less of a teacher. "
In recognizing Sai Baba's pedophilia and facing it directly I now realize that I've been given an opportunity by Consciousness to learn and practice active compassion to its fullest, without anger.
Sai Organization, please stop hiding from and covering up what you claim not to know. Acknowledge Sai Baba's pedophilia pubicly so that the sexual abuse is stopped. Put into practice his teachings of "Why fear when I am here" and "My love is my message, my message is my life."
When the teacher is healed he can continue to teach unimpeded.
When the teacher asks for help in dealing with his own dark side, be it through dream or outer behavior, he is giving a tremendous teaching.