to links pageThis document contains posts 201-300 from the August 2001 Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
A Sparrow 300 9-02-2001
Hi Terrie and Beth; I just logged on. Beth, I was a devotee for nine years. I had heard rumors, but chose to think that either they were complete fabrications, or that perhaps there was some Hindu ritualistic thing involving male genitals that I knew nothing about, but I was sure that it had nothing to do with sb's own libido, which I was sure didn't even exist, since after all, he has said that he has no desire. Late last summer we received the letter and diary entry from the 15 year old boy and his mother, and it was a real shocker. After that I started to explore the issue on the net and found out that there were many more such stories, and that young males all over the world were risking their reputations and even their safety by signing their names to testemonies of their own abuse at the hands of sb. That's my story in a nut shell.
I have to say that I have never met the 15 year old, but I have acquaintances who know him and his mother (I should add that these acquaintances are still devotees, as they believe that anything the avatar does is for a good reason) and they claim that they are honest and reliable people.
I hope you thoroughly go over the material that's presented on both the web sites that are mentioned on this board.
One more thing: Anthony Thomas did start this board specifically for ex-devotees and people, like yourself, who are questioning if sb is who he says he is. There are many boards for people who are still die-hard devotees, and just as it would be inappropriate for people like me to post on those boards, it's not in order for the staunch defenders to take up time and space here. As Terrie said, there are 2 yahoo boards where people from both sides can debate, but this nonsense about animal rights (not that animal rights are nonsense) is just a monkey wrench that's being thrown in to distract people from the topic that we're here to discuss.
Believe me, I haven't received a farthing from the meat industry.
Anyway, it's good to have you here.
... A Sparrow
Terrie 299 09-02-2001 06:05 PM
Edited by author 09-02-2001 06:08 PM
Beth, I agree that it's the Truth that matters. I was a very devoted devotee for more than 25 years. When I first heard of "The Findings," I was sure a Christian fundamentalist sect was behind the document, and fully expected to see the name of a church as the sponsor at the end of the text.
One article that was really convincing to me was Anthony Thomas' "A very clever setup," http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise on the INNER PLANES page. Then I started to think about Anthony's statement that all devotees were strongly affected and not only the alleged victims of sexual abuse.
Then the diary of the 15 year old California boy came into my hands via a person who knew him. But it was my own personal guidance that finally convinced me.
Without some kind of personal guidance (from within), I agree that it would be very difficult and confusing for devotees to figure it all out if they (1) were not an abuse victim and (2) they didn't know anyone who was a victim.
How to know the Truth? I know several devotees who prayed very honestly to God to let them know the truth. Following such a prayer, one man I know had a powerful and disturbing dream of a homosexual orgy. Another California man also had a powerful dream where SB was abusing devotees. (It's on the Sunrise site.)
"Sparrow" and I both experienced a feeling of freedom and a great deal more physical and mental energy after deciding that SB must not be god after all. Each person has to have a personal experience that is convincing to them.
Sparrow, if you're around, maybe you could tell us what convinced you to become an ex-devotee.
Beth 298 09-02-2001 04:32 PM
thank you Terrie for all the info. I have been following the "scandal" for almost 2 years now since I first heard the allegations...and I just had to go away completely baffled last year when I could not get to the bottom of any of the stories. NOW I want to get to the bottom of them...rather than all this back and forth silly insults etc...that is going on the the various Yahoo clubs. Many people are offering very valid arguments, both for and against SSB. To my way of thinking there just isn't any reason why a pro-Baba person should attack a Baba accuser or vice/versa. We are all in this boat together. If some of us have believed the accusations and choose to walk away from Baba and maybe even warn others, then that is OK..that is not wrong. If one stays with Baba and continues hhis spiritual path with the belief that Baba is his teacher , then that is ok too. We need to have more respect for each others choices and we should all be trying to get to the TRUTH of the matter together.
Terrie 297 09-02-2001 04:16 PM
O.K. Another message from Terrie! Beth, I want to thank you for being the inspiration to remind me to check out Alexandra's articles again. Her two articles are absolutely superb...terrific...wonderful!
Everyone, print them out to save while they are available on the Internet. The second article (right beside "A Guru Accused" on the Dutch website) is called For and Against Sathya Sai Baba on the Internet," and details the various exchanges over the Net.
These articles are priceless, in my opinion. I plan to make copies of them to hand out to questioning devotees. Sure, they're long, 17 pages for "Guru," and 21 pages for "Internet." But both articles are thoroughly researched and documented, no small feat in this age of quickie internet publishing which often has no documentation at all.
Everyone....save these articles!!!Love,
Terrie
Terrie 296 09-02-2001 03:51 PM
Edited by author 09-02-2001 03:53 PM
Beth, I've just done a little research for you. Alexandara Nagel has written an extremely comprehensive article (actully a mini-book) about sb and the origins of the abuse stories. The article is alled "A Guru Accused" and is posted on http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/english.html Click on "Articles" at the top of the page and scroll down to August 15.
Alexandra's article is also linked from http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise on the "What's really going on with Sai Baba? page.
I am looking forward as well to hearing from any devotee who has a good defense of the abuse stories.
Terrie 295 09-02-2001 03:38 PM
Edited by author 09-02-2001 03:39 PM
Beth, please check out http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibaba
A great many of the posts on that board are posted by the person who calls himself "Dutch." That will give you a better idea of who that poster is.
There are many pro-sai boards if you want to discuss the molestation stories with devotees. On this board you will get the insights of ex-devotees who were either victims themselves or believe the stories are true.
We have not yet seen a really good reply from any sb devotee about their defense of the molestation stories. Mostly they say that the ex-devotees are being paid to defame sb. That is perhaps the biggest pie-in-the-sky story of all.
Beth 294 09-02-2001 03:29 PM
"Dutch" is also welcome to reply to your question about how he justifies the stories related by the young men about sb's molestations.
Ok..I missed this part...thanks for letting him reply to me.
Beth 293 09-02-2001 03:25 PM
"Dutch" was deleted because he is a well known Yahoo sb devotee who uses many an alias and whose posts do not contain any useful facts and often outright lies. We can also ask what the meat industry has to do with the sai expose...
These are YOUR opinions...that he is a liar. I want to have a discussion with devotees as to why they think that there is a conspiracy to slander SSB. I don't know what the meat industry has to do with it either..but I'd like to hear from them WHY they think so. I f they don't make sense to me, then at least I can see it for myself. Please don't censor so much OK? Thanks
Beth 292 09-02-2001 03:20 PM
But why not keep his post on the board so that there canbe a discussion about it??? It seems that this board wants to be one-sided. Unless the post are obvioulsly offensive or a bunch of garble...why not leave it on?
Welcome to Beth 291 09-02-2001 03:14 PM
Edited by author 09-02-2001 03:26 PM
Welcome to the board, Beth. Open discussion re: sb is welcome here. You will get some replies to your post from ex-dovotees. Especially Hari Sampath will be able to answer your questions.
"Dutch" was deleted because he is a well known Yahoo sb devotee who uses many an alias and whose posts do not contain any useful facts and often outright lies. We can also ask what the meat industry has to do with the sai expose?
"Dutch" is also welcome to reply to your question about how he justifies the stories related by the young men about sb's sexual assaults.
Beth 290 09-02-2001 02:57 PM
Dutch
It will be interesting to see if your message stays on this board for even the whole day today. It is my opinion that a civil discussion of thoughts and feelings and opinions re: SSB should be allowed to be posted and should STAY posted please. Since I am only just hearing about the accusers motives...Could you please Dutch enlightenme on the origins of the attacks on SSB? I know that most of the people who post against SSB are not the originaters of the slander...they are only pleople who have become convinced that the accusations are true about Baba. How do you, an SSB supporter,justify all the young boys accounts (suppossedly truthful accounts) of sexual assault? The young boys (young men's) accountsseem thoroughly sincere to me...These cannot be paid off could they? Has anyone traced it back to the real perpetrators? and is there real evidence for this?
Dragonslayer 287 09-02-2001 01:17 AM
correction on the link I gave in the last message.Here is the main site which gives information on the work of Amnesty International. http://www.amnesty.org/Hari Sampath 286 09-02-2001 01:16 AM
Does anybody know any Japanese SB ex-follower, or current devotee ?
Please e-mail me privately if you do.Thanks,Hari SampathDragonslayer 285 09-02-2001 01:07 AM
Edited by author 09-02-2001 01:12 AM
In my last message I gave the email for U.S. Amnesty :
admin-us@aiusa.orgHere is the main site which gives information on the work of Amnesty International. http://www.amesty.org/A Sparrow 284 09-02-2001 12:01 AM
Dragonslayer ... Re message # 259, thanks for the idea about Amnesty International.
283 09-01-2001 09:35 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 09-01-2001 10:43 PM
SUNRISE 282 09-01-2001 08:45 PM
Edited by author 09-01-2001 08:45 PM
We forgot to mention one more new article: There's a new article on the psychology of cult membership that was originally contributed by Andries on QT. Good article! (CULTS AND CULT LEADERS)
SUNRISE 281 09-01-2001 08:31 PM
Edited by author 09-01-2001 08:34 PM
We've put several new articles on Sunrise today and made some major changes in the Links page. There's a new page called THE SPLINTERED MIRROR which deals with disappointment, lies, "casting out" (from the ashram) etc.
Anyone with a disappointing experierence with the sai org, officers or sai baba is welcome to contribute to that page. Post your experience here or e-mail it to sunrise@snowcrest.net
NEW POSTINGS:
The remaining messages from the old QT board and the first 200 from this board (DISCUSSION)
The Money Behind sai baba (WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON WITH SB) (Hari, please check this one out for accuracy. It was put together from your posts on QT.)
Bring Light into your life (HOPE)Barry Pittard's ashram experience (MIRROR)The young Dutch devotee's story (EX-DEVOTEES SPEAK)Profile of a Pedophile (TESTIMONIES)We've rearranged many of the links. PLEASE post here or write to Sunrise if you find a link that doesn't work!! Thanks to all!! http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Terrie 280 09-01-2001 08:10 PM
Edited by author 09-01-2001 08:10 PM
Yes, David Blaine is something else. Even when we're supposed to know how he's doing something, I can't follow it.
Tony O'Clery 279 09-01-2001 07:54 PM
David Blaine does better tricks in conjuring that sb ever has. He does it right in the street and on television for all to see. sb is an adept at diverting attention, and then doing the switch. Sometimes he does the switch to start with, and not knowing this one will stare at his hand, waiting to see something and something doesn't happen. Analyse the accounts of devotees like Bon or Sandweiss to see this conjuring method in use.......
Terrie 275 09-01-2001 03:30 PM
Someone on this board asked about George, but the message isn't there now. I happen to know George. He has looked so "Indian" when visiting India that he was allowed into the temples without question. He's completely at home in any Hindu temple AND in Christian churches as well. Anti-Hindu?? Not in the least. Anti-Christian? Not that either. He believes that each religion has its place in the world, and is comfortable in all of them - except the fundamentalist Christian and Vaishnava sects.
274 09-01-2001 03:22 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 09-01-2001 03:24 PM
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 273 09-01-2001 03:11 PM
Dear Dennis;You commented;" The prominent lady devotee is from Oregon and has been to Prashanthi a large >number of times. I have known her for 27 years. She always wears >some jewelry or trinket from SSB."REPLY:So what is your inference.? Some followers of any Master did and do develop a kind of 'attachment' to their Master. This has been the norm. You know the story of Mary Magdaline and Jesus, Krishna and the Gopis etc. If 'X' chosses to wear only the jwellery among the gifts she received or that was the only thing she had received, that is her right and wish. As a parent you will only give gifts to your children what they wish or cherish. Your wish and intention is their welfare. In what way SB is different.? The world reveals its colour according to the type of colour glass one wears, red for red, green for green, etc.
You commented:" Ourconclusion was that SSB had faked the materialization on purpose >as a test for the magician!!
REPLY;As ex or current devotees we have read or heard SB fulfilling the wishes of one or more AT THE SAME TIME by SEEMINGLY to comply with such individual wishes. So it is possible your above conclusion was right after all..unless your magician friend was untruthful..why not..?
You commented:" >Yes. When I was Vice-President of the above named center in the >early and mid 70's, a woman of our center claimed that her >japamala worn around her neck for protection disappeared without >a trace. She never saw it again."REPLY;This is not unusual either. The materialised object disaapears for several reasons not b/c it losses its power. The chief reason for disappearence being loss of faith or misbehaviour or abuse of the power of the object by the receipient.
You asked;>Please answewer this question. Have you investigated the
>obviouls faked materializations by SSB shown on videos?? How are >you going to rationalize this?REPLY;I've witnessed materialisation by SB in my interview in P.N. in 1989 when he brought out a jade lingam, two silver pendents, and vibuthi. I was sitting right under his right feet and his right hand while materialising was right under my vision...There was no faking whatsoever...intelligence dictates that none, even a magician can hold powder, solid object, liquid, etc.. all at the same time in one hand and deliver them at random, in a crowd, in private rooms near and far, in a plane, in a moving car, in a jungle, on the river bed, on mountain tops, on a tree, etc. Why bother about a materialisation on a screen when you can witness them in person.? What hapened to the Cross SB materialised to Hislop.? How do you account for miracles happening abroad.? Does he export vibuthi pellets to XYZ's home to be crushed and pasted.? Finally, if ever SB comes to investigation at any time...by any one..I welcome that and look forward as the truth has be faced whatever they may be..sooner it is accomplished, better for all of us.
With regards. 272 09-01-2001 03:04 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 09-01-2001 03:24 PM
Deletions 271 09-01-2001 02:43 PM
Sorry I was a bit late getting rid of all those spam messages. I'll check the board more often after this. I apologize if anyone's "real" message was deleted along with all the spams. I try to be careful. God bless.
Andries 262 09-01-2001 01:56 PM
Edited by author 09-01-2001 02:00 PM
Re 255
My thanks and congratulations for everybody who worked on the expose.
The end of the worst part of the nightmare for the boys in the colleges in Whitefield and Puttaparthi seems very near.
I will do my best to help with the recovery sections for devotees of the websites. That seems to become the biggest priority now.
What is the 'Centre Institute' by the way?
Kind regards, Andries K.D. 261 09-01-2001 01:51 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 09-01-2001 02:39 PM
260 09-01-2001 01:42 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 09-01-2001 02:39 PM
Dragonslayer 259 09-01-2001 12:40 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has investigated this, but today I wrote a note to Amnesty International informing them of the horrible crimes aganist children being committee by the false god. I would urge everyone to write a note as soon as possible. An investigation by this organization would get attention from both governments and the press.
Write to:admin-us@aiusa.orgHari Sampath 258 09-01-2001 12:17 PM
Terrie :FANTASTIC news !!I just got off the phone with India Today after seeing this, and they are also receiving many enquiries by phone whether the Indian Govt is investigating SB, considering banning the org etc.
Cheers !!Hari Sampath.
Dragonslayer 257 09-01-2001 12:16 PM
I have only had contact with "high official" in the organization and that was Goldstein. This was a number of years ago at a large conference on teaching "human values." My impression was that Goldstein was unfriendly, arrogant, and not especially spiritual. I got the feeling that for me associating with that man was definitely unhealthy. At the time I felt alot of guilt over this. Now I understand.
Love to All!
MarsWalker108 256 09-01-2001 12:11 PM
Dear Dr. Siva,With reference to #242 >>Just b/c you sw one aldy to whom He gave a ring or watch that dosen't men that He is some womaniser or a pervert.<<
I have been present in interviews wherein SSB has supposedly materlized objects. In fact, I have seen many of these materializations during my trips to Prashanthi over the years. The watch made in Japan was given to a young man. The prominent lady devotee is from Oregon and has been to Prashanthi a large number of times. I have known her for 27 years. She always wears some jewelry or trinket from SSB.
>>A magician will not possess such an omnisicience. We shouldn't judge anyone with one encounter with that person<<
It is very interesting that a magician for a time was a member of the first Sai Center of Seattle when I was Vice-President of that center in the early and mid 70's. When he visited SSB, he claimed that he saw SSB fake a materialization. In hindsight, I find it interesting that we members of the Seattle Center rationalized a conclusion concerning this incident. Our conclusion was that SSB had faked the materialization on purpose as a test for the magician!!
>>Your quote from Autobiography of a yogi conveniently stops at a critical place Ref ch18..the quote says'..ignoring his Master's warning, Afzal began to misuse his powers. Whatever object he took up and then replaced would soon disappear with out a trace," Have you heard of any of SB's materialized objects disappearing with out a trace....<<
Yes. When I was Vice-President of the above named center in the early and mid 70's, a woman of our center claimed that her japamala worn around her neck for protection disappeared without a trace. She never saw it again.
The reason i did not include the above mentioned quote in my post is that my emphasis regarding Ch 18 was Afzal's ability to materialize objects. For example, consider the quote by Swami Sri Yukteswar, "After I returned with a vessel of water, the fakir cried, "Hazrat, 'put the stone in the pot!' "The stone appeared at once. I remembered it from the vessel and found my signature as legible as when I had written it."
The above incident occured when Yukteswar was visiting a friend. He and 20 of the neighbors were witnesses to a spetacular feet when they were seved an elaborate meal on gold plates. This was all materialized by Afzal. Granted the gold plates were later taken up back to the astral worl by Hazrat (entity from the astral), but the piont I am making concerns Afzal ability to perform materializations.
Even after Afzal repented and retired to the mountains for sadhana, he was allowed to retain the ability to materlize all food and the cothes that he needed. Let us not forget that it was implied that Afzal's allowed him to have thesegifts in the first place.
Please answewer this question. Have you investigated the obviouls faked materializations by SSB shown on videos?? How are you going to rationalize this?
I sincerely hope that this discussion will help both devotees and ex-devotees to proceed caustiously concderning thesubject of paranormal powers.
Love, DennisTerrie 255 09-01-2001 11:48 AM
Edited by author 09-01-2001 11:49 AM
This came from Barry Pittard of Australia:http://www.thenewspapertoday.com/index.phtml?THE NEWSPAPER TODAY (E-newspaper from India) Saturday, September 1, 2001 TNT Poll#158 (page 1, bottom right)
Question: Should the Centre (govt) institute a probe into the allegations against Sai Baba? YES 92 percent NO 8 percent So there you have it everyone!! The expose work and effort and media coverage have reached the grass roots of society!!
carlos 254 09-01-2001 09:43 AM
Berry, You are so right, unlike saishoot i believe talking about how the top people in the ORG behave is very relevant. Like the gentlemen you mentioned ,there are many alike.
I got to know most of the high rank in Latin America and some in the States, It was pathetic how they treated the devotees around them. They thought they knew it all, and the worse of it was that they wouldnt listen if some thing bad was say about sb.
They got together and made their own rules to manipulate and brainwash Whoever came in the ORG.
Most of them had lots of problems with the devotees due to the wish of power.
I know a big rank official who use his position to get into the young girls pants. He was often in the interview room with sb, thats what they learned from him.
Not all of them were like that but at this time to me they are just as guilty for covering up the crimes to humanity.
In the name of God they are committing crimes thats why we have to stand up and tell the whole truth about sb.
For saishoot life is too short for the abuse ones is a living endless hell. Lets pray for them so they could cope with their sorrow.
God blessSAISHOOT 253 09-01-2001 09:15 AM
Berry Pittard;Why do you worry or care about assessing others' spiritual status.? If only we concentrate on our own, life will be more productive and fun. Life is too short..
Try to see the Eternal in the ephemeral and the magnificent in the mundane.....
252 09-01-2001 08:14 AM
Andries 251 09-01-2001 07:04 AM
Edited by author 09-01-2001 07:07 AM
What Never to Say to Someone That Has Been Deceived by an Exploitive Group
(These comments are the last thing someone needs to hear if they have been deceived by the Worldwide Church of God, its affiliate organizations, or any pseudo-religious leader of an exploitive or cultic group.) x "If you had kept up prayer and Bible study you wouldn't have ended up deceived."
x "Why did it take so long to leave?"x "You certainly are the last person I would think would join a cult."
x "Your group isn't a cult; they have the right doctrines. Perhaps you're just bitter."
x "They aren't a cult, only a little aberrant."x "You need to get into a good church."x "You need to get into the Word of God."x "You need to repent of your sins."x "You were in Satan's clutches."x "What do you have to be depressed about? You're out, aren't you?"
x "There are people worse off than you are."x "How could you have been so foolish? (or stupid)"x "I hope you're smart enough now not to get involved in another cult."
x "Why can't you just forgive and forget?"x "I don't want to hear anymore about your former group."x "Why are you continuing to dwell on this? Get on with your life!"
x "You must have been weak spiritually."x "You're over-reacting."x "Forget about those people! [in the group you left] You'll make new friends [at a new church]."
x "No one in your kind of group could be converted."x "If you had just stayed in the Word, you never would have been deceived."
x "Are your children [that were raised in the group & perhaps thrown out] saved?"
x "Why give up on God? You're the one that turned away from Him!"
x "What do you expect? You caused your family to act the way they do towards you."
x "You chose to go into a cult."x "If it wasn't for people like you, the counter-cult ministries would be out of business."
from http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/nevrsay.htm
Barry Pittard 250 09-01-2001 12:53 AM
On August 29, (Message 200), Elena Hartgering wrote: Many people became devotees of Sai Baba after reading reading Howard Murphet's "Sai Baba Man of Miracles." That is how I was introduced to Baba, and how I too initiated others. I wonder what Howard Murphet had to say when Barry Pittard asked him about Sai Baba's pedophilia. Any comment? Elena
Hang on. Elena, I did not ask about paedophilia. I asked about rumours of homosexuality. As you know, a swami is renounced to sexual activity, whether heterosexual or homosexual.
He responded in a way that I have found typical of Howard, my fellow Australian. (Like ALL Australian men!). Like a gentleman. Howard was husband, too, of a gracious wife, the late lovely Iris. In his voice, I sensed his great faith in ssb. He replied along the lines:
Baba himself will sort out all these matters. We know he is cosmic Love personified. So long as we keep our focus on our sadhana, and his love for us, we are alright. All great spiritual masters had to withstand this kind of thing. You and I know that we are with the Lord, and the Lord is with us. All the rest is sent to test our faith and see if it is strong.
On the other hand ...! The highranking U.S. SS ORG official spoke in another manner altogether. He snarled that I had no business giving heed to such matters. How dare I utter such a thing about the Lord of the Universe. He turned furiously on his heel, and strode away. I was left standing shocked. The spelling of the name of this superluminary of the SS ORG I think I got wrong in the post. Perhaps it is Beyer. His first name, Richard.
The chances are that some readers of Quick Topic may recall such an official of the U.S. organisation. Perhaps even more likely, is that such a person has been rude to many others along the way. Making me curious to ask both devotees and former devotees alike: what is your honest assessment of the spirituality of so many who are in high positions in the SS ORG?
Barry Pittard, Australia
Terrie 248 08-31-2001 11:39 PM
Edited by author 08-31-2001 11:44 PM
Ref #246, 247:
A Mountain of Class, I'd say!!Querant, maybe you haven't checked in here when Anthony Thomas posted the purpose of this board. The board is for ex-devotees and devotees who have serious questions about whether they should remain faithful to their guru. They wonder about the darker side of sb and they want information on the stories they've heard.
As Anthony has said many times, there are plenty of pro sai boards and sites for loyal devotees. This board isn't for faithful sb devotees to argue their case. They can do that on the pro-sai boards.
I once became a member of a Yahoo pro-sai support group, and posted some strong anti-sai posts. When I realized that the purpose of the group was to give support to devotees disturbed about the molestation stories, I withdrew from the group, apologized and asked that my posts be deleted. As a strong anti-sb person, it wasn't my place to be there. I would like to see the same courtesy from loyal sb devotees on this board.
Balaraman Suresh 247 08-31-2001 09:57 PM
Hari,
A Touch Of Class!Hari Sampath 246 08-31-2001 08:37 PM
Querant :Sure , I will recommend that the webmaster allows devotees to post... PROVIDED...
1. You recommend to sanathana sarathi, that I can write articles on Sai Baba.
2. You recommend to all Sai Baba centers that I should be allowed to talk on Sai Baba.
3. You recommend to all pro Sai Baba websites and discussion boards, that I should be allowed to post there.
EVEN if 100 million people are Sai Baba devotees ( probably exaggerated by 20 times), that still mean that 5.9 billions of the world population are NOT Sai Baba devotees, so would the Sai Baba org consider the views of this huge majority ?
When all this happens, you will be absolutely free to post here, but then I doubt whether you will want to at that time.
Hari Sampath
Querant 245 08-31-2001 08:24 PM
I sincerely hope, webmaster, that you will allow Sai devotees to post without immediately removing their words.. since we are over 100 million or since it is a matter of courtesy
Post #242 244 08-31-2001 08:20 PM
Thank you Dr. Siva. I commend you on being willing to change your post. That took some openness of heart. It will help to keep the tone of the board more open and friendly. Pranams to you.
243 08-31-2001 08:02 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-31-2001 08:13 PM
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 242 08-31-2001 07:27 PM
>DEAR DENNIS;>
>SB says that some objects like watches are brought from existing >supply. There are no invisible beings helping him and his will >brings the object-ref 'Conversations'pg.82. >
>He says that He gives rings, talismans, rosaries, etc. to >signalize the bond between Him and the receipient-ref SSS 9;84. >Just b/c you saw one lady to whom He gave a ring or watch that >dosen't mean that He is some womaniser or a pervert.To my sister he materialised a Ganesa idol..to a Christian woman >patient of mine he materialised a rosary 10 yrs ago which she >still carries, to a Muslim friend of mine, a woman, he brought >out a Koran with a wave of his hand 8 yrs.ago which she still >cherishes. A magician will not possess such an omniscience. We >shouldn't judge anyone with one encounter with that person..
>Your quote from Autobiography of a yogi conveniently stops at a >critical place Ref ch.18..the quote says '..ignoring his
>Master's warning, Afzal began to misuse his powers. Whatever >object he took up and and then replaced would soon disappear >with out a trace.' Have you heard of any of SB's
>materialised object disappearing with out a trace...if they >disappear for a reason for some time they re appear in the same >type or changed..and SB never said that his miracles qualify him >to be God or an avatar. He says his mircles are his visiting >cards and don't get attached to them or to him...
Deleted by topic administrator 08-31-2001 02:48 PM
Hari Sampath 233 08-31-2001 01:46 PM
Edited by author 08-31-2001 01:46 PM
Sai Baba and The Blitz tabloid :Sai Baba granted an interview to RK Karanjia,the chief editor of The Blitz tabloid in September 1976.
It has been claimed by all prominent SB circles as well as SB himself that RK Karanjia was "transformed", and became an SB devotee.
The Blitz carried a picture of Sai Baba in EVERY issue of the magazine for 20 years after that!! In all other pages of the same magazine, you find sleazy stories, and pictures of women with almost no clothing, titillating stories, and downright dirty content.
Sai Baba NEVER once asked that his picture be removed from these magazines, for 20 years. He NEVER asked The Blitz to discontinue publication of such dirty semi pornographic material. SB gained ALL the mileage and publicity he got from RK Karanjia and The Blitz, yet he claims to have "transformed" RK Karanjia into a devotee.
In SB's recent speech he has said that he wants the Govt to initiate programs against degradation of women on TV and in magazines , and he would fully support it !!
SB probably forgot that he was "blessing" the pornographic magazine Blitz, run by his "transformed devotee" Karanjia for 20 years !! After all, SB IS getting old and senile, and forgets these things easily. More importantly, his followers forget it even before him !!
Hari Sampath
Tony O'Clery 230 08-31-2001 12:53 PM
Douglas Todd, Religious Dept. of the Vancouver Sun that is.
Tony O'Clery 229 08-31-2001 12:52 PM
I notice the print edition here says,' The Times of London', with files from Douglas Todd.
Doug is the journalist that Glen and Myself and others worked with. I had bombarded the Sun with files some two years ago now.
Good on yer Doug!!! It is important that credit be given to those who have contributed to this expose.
With regard to miracles, the only miracle that sb can perform is astral travel which we can all do but perhaps not so adeptly. All else is conjuring, mental abberation, dellusion, and illusion.
To Andries 228 08-31-2001 12:47 PM
Edited by author 08-31-2001 12:49 PM
Andries, please review the purpose of this board. Do you know who Mr. Shah is?? If you want to read about sb's supposed mirarcles, there are a thousand books out there. But reviewing these stories will make it even more difficult for you to detach from the false god. God bless. (the Real God)
Andries 221 08-31-2001 04:37 AM
Edited by author 08-31-2001 08:58 AM
From the Srimad-Bhagavatam (SB 12.3.38)
In the age of Kali, "Uncultured men will accept charity on behalf of the Lord and will earn their livelihood by making a show of austerity and wearing religious robes. Those who know nothing of religion will mount a high seat and presume to speak on religious principles."
Andries 220 08-31-2001 04:04 AM
Edited by author 08-31-2001 10:12 AM
Dear All,
SSB has never given a detailed rejoinder to all the allegations. Instead he uses his innocent devotees in their misguided beliefs to do the dirty job. Yes, I too wrote apologetic emails. May be some devotees can ask him to write on this board himself. Or if he continues to condemn the internet there may be a devotee who can print hardcopies of all the allegations and request a detailed response from him.
Probably SSB's behaviour to use his devotees for his own ends in this respect is symptomatic of his sociopath personality. See http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Ct-socio.htm Devotees are imo nothing but victims of his persuasive powers and his marketing organization.
Please, devotees it's not too late to see that you have been used. Stop defending him. The time has come that he has to defend himself.
Kind Regards, Andries K.D.
219 08-31-2001 01:22 AM
Hari,
UNESCO behind the scene at http://www.sathyasaivictims.com is fantastic piece of due diligent work.Kudos to you and your team for carrying out such a systematic,well thought out plan to nab the Parthi Baba and lodge him in jail.Though it has not happened ie putting Parthi Baba in jail,but i am sure that the "WILL OF PEOPLE AND THE WILL OF TRUE GOD" will eventually triumph and put Parthi Baba behind Jail.
Balaraman Suresh 216 08-30-2001 07:03 PM
Well said a sparrow.
Hari Sampath 215 08-30-2001 07:00 PM
NEW on http://www.sathyasaivictims.comUnder "RECENT NEWS AND DEVELOPMENTS", the real goings on within the UNESCO last year, in September 2000, and the interactions between UNESCO, The Times of India and myself have been posted. The original e-mails exchanged between top officials of the UNESCO is produced here
Under "GOVERNMENT DEVELOPMENTS", the full complaint to the Central Bureau of Investigation ( CBI) , about the criminal activities of Sai Baba, has been posted.
Thanks again ,Afshin, for all the hard work :-)Hari Sampath
A Sparrow 214 08-30-2001 06:25 PM
Rainmaker ... Contrary to your assumption, many ex-devotees, myself included, do not hate sb or wish any pain or suffering upon him. All we want is to wake up the world to reality and for him to stop doing the things he does that hurt other people. Unfortunately, when something has gone this far unchecked, it probably will take coersion of some sort to change the situation. I doubt that he will suddenly develop a guilty conscience and decide to mend his ways. Having to step down from his position of power and lose his respectibility would likely cause him some sorrow, and giving up numerous boy toys would make him pout, but that's life. Our reasons for speaking out against him are to prevent future disappointments and disasters, not to be unkind to sb.
MarsWalker108 213 08-30-2001 05:39 PM
Dear All, (Continued from #212)In Chapter 18 of Yogananda's classic, "Autobiography of a Yogi", Swami Sri Yukteswar talks about his very interesting encounter with a fakir named Afzal who was given certain yogic methods by a Hindu Master enabling him to perfom miracles and materialize objects. Afzal's guru states, "I am going to teach you a certain yoga method that will give you command over one of the invisible realms. The great powers that will be yours should be execised for worthy ends; never employ them selfishly!....Swami Sri Yukteswar explains how Afzal was always accompanied by a disembodied spirtit named Hazrat. "This invisible entity was able to fulfil the fakir's slightest wish."
Yukteswar relates how the yogic powers were misused by Afazal and how people were hurt. The story indicates how objects were made to vanish and and then materialized at a different loacation. Objects were also made to appear from seemingly nowhere.
"The fakir was not highly developed spiritually," Sri Yukteswar explained. "His mastery of a certain yoga technique gave him access to an astral plane where any desire is immediately materialized. Through the agency of an astral being, Hazat the Mohammedan could summon the atoms of any object from etheric energy by an act of powerful will...."
"Afzal was not a man of God-realizaion," Master went on. "Miracles of a permanent and beneficial nature are performed by true saints because they have attuned themselves to the omnipotent Creator. Afzal was merely an ordinary man with an extraordinary power of penetrating a subtle realm not usually entered by mortals until death."
I believe that Chapter 18 of the "Autobiograpy" can help shed light on the subject of miracles for both devotees and ex-devotees. The true story tells how materializations can be performed. Most importantly, it indicates how one can have great paranormal powers such as materializing objects but lack spiritual development. Reading this story will help give us discrimination and discenment when we confronted with miracles and maybe shed light on the SSB enigma.
Love, Dennis J Hanisch
MarsWalker108 212 08-30-2001 04:41 PM
Dear All,Since I was a SSB devotee for 27 years, I would like to give my take on his miracles, especially the materializations.
I believe that SSB has some paranormal powers as I witnessed a miracle involving him during my visit to Prashanthi during the summer of 1987. I'm not talking about a materialization here. What I witnessed will not be revealed here for fear that it would end up on a pro-SSB website.
To begin, I remember in the early 70's at the Sai Center in Seattle we discussed 3 catergories of materializations of SSB as explained by SSB: 1) Objects were dematerialized and moved through space and then rematerialized. 2) An entity from the astral world would materialize some objects. 3) SSB would create and materialize objects by his sheer will power. I remember these 3 categories of SSB materializations were explanations given to us by either Hislop or some member of the organization governing body.
Many years later I noticed that SSB in his discourses indicated that all of his materilazations were created by only an act of his will. This seemed like a contradiction to his previous explanation and a red flag.
During a trip to Prashanthi in Janurary of 1980, I was concerned when a devotee showed me a watch materialized by SSB obviouly made in Japan. I also noticed about this time the the gifts received by a prominent female devotee consisted primarily of rings and other jewelry. It seemed she would wear many "trinkets" made by SSB. These observations left questions in my mind.
I've always wondered about the emphasis SSB by his actions seemed to place on phenomena and miracles. I like so many others accepted his explanations and those found in the many books witten about him Fortunately. I learned from Paramahansa Yogananda's writings that the possession of paranormal powers does not always equate with spritual attainment. I will now endeavor to give evidence of this truth from Yoganada's famous classic, "Autobiography of a Yogi." In my opinion, this is very important as many devotees relate paranormal powers and miracles as a manisfestation of God or the avatar. These manesfestatons are used as a rational explanation that SSB is God.
Love, Dennis J Hanisch (Continued next post)rainmaker 211 08-30-2001 02:07 PM
**weapons entering the aura of an Avatar or master enter the circle and boomerang out upon the sender.. like guided missiles programmed with the sender's address THOUGHTS ON FORGIVING.. Donna S: : Ones anger does not affect the person who has aroused it.. but it makes ones own body sick.
Jesus: Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Marty, a Jesuit of Detroit to author Mary Russell: The Society of Jesus accepts your apology.
L B: Resentment turns a face slap into an ulcer.
Kabir: Not in the
morning pond does the lion wash his blood.
The Buddha: The more evil done to you the
more good do in return. (Such was the Buddha's purity that those who plotted to kill
him had their plans recoil upon themselves, not by his actions, but by the law of
spiritual physics.
Evangelical tv pastor John Hagee: Did someone harm you in 1962.. let go of it! Control and ride the horses of anger.
Kabir: Forgiveness is a game only saints
play.
Jan Freundschuh: (To a former foe) Now I see you as a pure rushing fountain ..
adorned only by your own sweet splashes.
Durga Calleia: I went to sleep praying for an
opponent, someone who had repeatedly harmed me. That night God came to me in her
form.. and gave me a creative new way to draw my graphs. Don't go down Rearview
Road. It's one way.. and leads to pillars of salt.
JBO: So are you saying that you are
getting the senior citizen discount on your sins and the reduced weekend excursion rate
on your transgressions?
Saint Of Shirdi: It is the fruitladen tree which attracts a shower of stones.
S Anthony Grafio: To hold someone in past thoughts is to imprison him. A Thakur: My uncle received the anger of a great saint. He considered
it a blessing.
Sai Baba told his followers not to respond to attacks in a book by TB. He said 'diamonds shine more brightly foiled by black velvet'Balaraman Suresh 210 08-30-2001 12:36 PM
A SparrowYou are right,the message is spreading like wild fire and now some of the devotees are not so faithful like before and are leaving in hordes.People are being attracted by luring them with promises of gifts and goodies,Latur was one incident where this happened.
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Balaraman Suresh 206 08-30-2001 09:56 AM
Thanks Terrie,may be thats what Murphet probably meant.I thought Murphet turned anti Parthi Baba,according to grapevine news. Maybe some of you could write a book like Howard Murphet,regarding the in human values of Parthi Baba,for all you know it might become a bestseller.
Normal Human 205 08-30-2001 05:37 AM
Baba is an excellent marketing guy. He should open a school on Sales and marketing.
By the way did you read about 3 victims of Baba's lust commiting suicide in The Times, 27th August 2001 ?
He should be renamed Sexy Sexy Baba.Terrie 204 08-30-2001 12:04 AM
Edited by author 08-30-2001 12:10 AM
Ref #202, Suresh,"there is one place where Murphet describes Parthi Baba as a "man from no man's land."
This means that Parthi Baba came from a small town in the middle of nowhere, the dusty, hot plains and hills of Andhra Pradesh. No one would have heard of a tiny little place called Puttaparthi in sb's early days except a few nearby villages.
It does indeed seem miraculous that Puttaparthi is now a destination for the international millions, even with an airport that supports modern jets. This fact alone kept me a devotee for many years. I was completelly awe struck, especially by the construction of the airport.
Only God could pull that one off (I thought). I didn't know then about the billions of dollars held by the SSB Central Trust and the tremendous political pull of Parthi Baba. Heck, I thought he did it all alone...probably even materialized the runway!!
A Sparrow 203 08-29-2001 11:51 PM
It's not so imortant whether or not the British govt issues a warning to those who would travel to India, what matters is that the word that sb is a pedophile and molestor is being spread throughout the world. If everyone who can read knows that, then there won't be any need for an official warning.
Balaraman Suresh 202 08-29-2001 10:57 PM
Man of Miracles by Howard Murphet was truly an awe inspiring book,which made me fall for Parthi Baba.In that book,there is one place where Murphet describes Parthi Baba as a "man from no man's land" it always bothered me as to what he meant.If there is anybody out there who can shed light,i would really appreciate it.Thanks!
Hari Sampath 201 08-29-2001 10:18 PM
Sai Baba involved with Indian Prime Minister in covering up murders !!
Here is more on the Prime Minister Vajpayee-Sai Baba political-criminal nexus !!!
Dated March 28th 1999http://www.tribuneindia.com/99mar28/edit.htm#2**************************** *****************Delhi grapevine
by Hari Shankar Vyas
Sai Baba does some plain speakingPRIME MINISTER Atal Behari Vajpayee is surrounded by so many problems created by his own people that he is not able to wriggle out of it. He is completely shaken. It began with his meeting with the Sai Baba who was in the Capital last fortnight. After attending a public function with him, he met the Baba separately along with his foster daughter Namita, alias Gunnu, and her husband Ranjan Bhattacharya. The Prime Minister had to wait outside Sai BabaÆs room for over half an hour.
They were together for 20-23 minutes. When they came out, they appeared to be sulking. Mr Vajpayee told one of the attendants outside BabaÆs room that he would like to meet him the next day, alone.
Vajpayee, it is said, remained in a sulking mood the entire day. He is reported to have called the chief of one of the agencies and asked him for dossiers on a lobbyist and a hotelier. He categorically asked him to give the report directly to him. Obviously, Sai Baba must have done some plain speaking. When the Baba, who lives so far away from Delhi, was aware of the happenings in Delhi, the political circles here must have been keeping regular tabs on it. Mr Vajpayee too must have been aware of it.
Mr Vajpayee, Mr Lal Krishan Advani and Mr Pramod Mahajan, all the three have met over this issue many a time during the past week. All the three are shaken by this problem. The matter relates to the murder of a journalist. The Delhi police has told the Home Ministry that it cannot handle this case. The direction in which the needle of suspicion is pointing could prove disastrous for the government. The three top most functionaries of the government are clueless as to what should be done. Though they feel that it is part of the conspiracy unleashed by the detractors of the government.
* * * *******************
Hari Sampath