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pageThis document contains posts 101-200 from the new August 2001 Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
Elena A. Hartgering 200
08-29-2001 08:08 PM ET (US)
Many people became devotees of Sai Baba after reading reading Howard Murphet's "Sai Baba Man of Miracles." that is how I was introduced to Baba and how I too initiated others. I wonder what Howard Murphet had to say when Barry Pittard asked him about Sai Baba's pedophilia. Any comment? Elena
SUNRISE 199
08-29-2001 05:22 PM ET (US)
Barry Pittard e-mailed the following story to Sunrise. It will be posted on the Ex-devotee stories page, but Barry suggested that it be posted here as well.
MY ASHRAM STORY
by Barry Pittard (Sent to Sunrise, August 2001)
There have been many stories of devotees being rejected or "cast out" from the ashram by sai baba and the sai organization. I have my own story which happened back in July 1982. Day after day, I was called up to the ashram office and confronted with the most ridiculous accusations - pathetic beyond imagining. The ashram manager was then (as many long-stay ashramites knew all too well) an awful fellow, an ex-judge of Andhra Pradesh, named Kutumb Rao.
Years later, I found through a beloved "Sai Sister" that I was supposed to be "on" with a western holy woman. No one who knows this magnificently courageous person, Om, would give the slightest credence to such arrant nonsense. I think a great many "Sai brothers" and certainly by my non-involvement with them, "Sai sisters," will know of my great commitment to strict brahmacharya when I lived around ssb and taught at his Whitefield college. At least this ridiculous accusation was not voiced at that time.
However, it was charged that I was raising funds for the Sai Organisation. In fact when back home in Australia for a brief time, I had told groups how non-fundraising was the very essence of the way ssb worked!
On another day, I was called up to the office, and Kutumb Rao reported that it hd been said that I was giving discourses on ssb around the ashram. Anyone would have known the palpable untruth of such an assertion.
And then within another day or two, Kutumb Rao called me up to the office yet again. Horror of horrors, came the charge that I had been seen talking to a woman!!!!!! As a matter of fact, I made a rare exception to listen to an Australian woman who was in a very upset state, as she had heard stories that ssb was a homosexual.
As she spoke, I noticed Kutumb Rao's secretary watching me as he hurried past. Within a couple of hours or so, the same fellow came to my room and said I was to see Kutumb Rao immediately. Soon after the Australian woman had raised the allegations of ssb's homosexuality, I thought it best to seek out the two most senior western devotees I knew to be present at the Puttaparthi ashram at the time: Howard Murphet and Richard Bayer.
Howard listened with the greatest courtesy, which I have always found to be typical of the man. However, Richard Bayer responded with a nasty rudeness.
Within almost no time at all, I was called up to the office. It was about 7 p.m. Kutumb Rao told me, "Baba has instructed me to send you out. You are never to return, either to Puttaparthi or to Whitefield!" He made me leave that very night, and I had to sleep on a flagstone seat in the Puttaparthi bus shelter, prey to God knows what dangers for a westerner.
Like so many others, I assumed that God (ssb) was putting me through difficulties meant to strengthen my resolve, and to "spin me through my bad karmas."
In the last 40 years or so, how many other devotees have accepted abuse and difficulties at the hands of sai baba in the name of "working off karma?" I know of many similar stories myself, and I can only imagine what the total number might be.
Love,
Barry Pittard, Australia
Hari Sampath 198
08-29-2001 05:04 PM ET (US)
Ref post # 195 :
I also will add another report from Oulook India.
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=9510
***********************************************
SAI
No Britain Warning On Sai Baba Yet
LONDON, AUG 28 (PTI)
Britain today said it has no no immediate plans to issue any warning to its citizens wishing to visit Satya Sai Baba in India in the wake of reports claiming that three Britons have died mysteriously after becoming his followers.
"Though we issue travel advice from time to time, at the moment, I am sure, there are no no immediate plans to issue any such travel advice," a British Foreign Office spokesman told PTI when asked about a report in 'The Times' newspaper in this regard.
The daily reported yesterday that the Foreign office is considering issuing "an unprecedented warning against the Guru to travellers" in the wake of three Britons, who became his followers, dying mysteriously.
*******************************************************
There is no inconsistency at all.
You would note that the Foreign office very carefully says "as yet no warnings" , and also " no immediate plans", and The Times has reported that the "foreign office is CONSIDERING issuing a warning".
So, quite obviously, the Foreign office is "considering carefully" but has not yet "decided to issue any warning" just now. At the same time, it is abundantly clear that the Foreign office has NOT ruled out the possibility.
This by itself says a LOT about SB, and it is disgraceful in itself for SB. NO mention of any words of "respect" towards SB... NO mention of anything else that conveys that the British Govt and the Foreign office consider Sai baba to be above suspicion, NO certificate AT ALL.
Just a cautious and cryptic comment that "as of now, there is no warning".
But no matter what, the real issue here is that The Times has published THREE stories in a day, and the news is out all over India, and the debate that Sai Baba is a pedophile has restarted.
You would also note that NOT EVEN ONE newspaper in India or ANYWHERE has condemned The Times. NOT EVEN ONE public figure or politician or any of the celebrity followers or any other agency has spoken out for Sai Baba.
This speaks volumes of what the public reaction is ....Silent acceptance of the fact that Sai Baba is INDEED a pedophile, whether or not it can be proved in a court of law.
All that Sanjay Dadlani can say is "the foreign office has not yet issued a warning " ...... This is the best defence of the "avatar" he can come up with, by itself a proof of how pathetic the situation is
The message is out there loud and clear.
Thank you,
Hari Sampath
Terrie 197
08-29-2001 01:53 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 08-29-2001 02:00 PM
Ref #195, Sanjay,
I will leave it to Hari to reply to your post. One thing I am happy about, however, is that you posted this message under your real name. That is much more sincere than using an alias.
This board is carefully monitored. To assure that your posts remain on the board, stay polite and non-critical. Rude and sarcastic posts are usually deleted, even if they contain valuable information. So...if you want to be heard, please follow the rules.
Balaraman Suresh 180
08-28-2001 05:18 PM
Dear Andries,
That was a nice link,i am beginning to get ideas LOL LOL :)
A Sparrow 179
08-28-2001 04:26 PM
I'd been away from the boards for a few days and what a delight when I returned! Now for the American media to get in on the act.
Andries 178
08-28-2001 04:00 PM
Your next career step? Become a guru!
http://www.aspma.com/cults/guru.htm
Btw I can't access my email.
logic_guy 177
08-28-2001 03:24 PM
Same news in indya.com - Rupert Murdoch owned News Channel in Inida, US, UK
http://news.indya.com/aug2001/india2808saibaba.html
Hari Sampath 176
08-28-2001 02:45 PM
TV stations are flashing news....
I just now received a phone call from India that TV stations in India have been flashing updates on the Sai Baba story that is developing. Most South Indian channels reported it in their 7 Pm, and many others are flashing it in their 10 Pm.
The word is getting around in India...
Hari Sampath
Hari Sampath 175
08-28-2001 02:43 PM
One More news story in India :
The Times story is picked up and everyone is bradcasting it all over the country.
http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news...d=6020603&page_no=1
Hari Sampath
Tony O'Clery 174
08-28-2001 01:14 PM
Whether mandarins in the C and FO, issue a travel warning or not. It doesn't change the mounting evidence of dishonesty and pedophilia etc from sb.
bhakthan 172
08-28-2001 12:17 PM
Dear All
This following piece on "saicult" written by an eminent and selfless social activist Prof.Gora, a close associate of Mahathma Gandhi, way back in 1969 is worth a careful consideration even after three decades-it just shows how the "hindu "mind/society can be easily manipulated and a "cult" built up .( This piece is an extract from a small book by him ,pl.refer to: http://www,positiveatheism.org/india/gora42/htm for full details.) For those who are not familiar with Indian social history,Prof.Gora is a selfproclaimed atheist but undeniably he was a great humanist ,selfless social worker ,a patriot who continued to work till his death for the upliftment of the poor whose numbers run into millions in India -so he had no vested religious or personal interests in raising the genuine issues concerning the " saibaba cult" which was then being cultivated systematically - His language shows his social concern in raising this issue rather than his 'atheist outlook".
quote
Chapter 12
Crime on Society
Return to Contents
Four months ago I got the following letter by post.
Om Sri Sri Saibaba, Om Sri Sri Saibaba, Om Sri Sri Saibaba. This Message has to be passed on to 20 persons within 10 days. See the results after 10 days please do not break the chain.
(Sd) Sri Satya Saibaba
St. Puttaparti.
This is prayer:
"Trust in God with all might and always acknowledge good luck for the well being of the men."
This prayer has been sent to you for good luck. This prayer has originally come to you from the other hand. You are going to receive luck for ten days after receiving this letter and mail to twenty persons whom you wish good luck and see what happens later. This letter must leave you within seventy hours of receiving it. In U.S.A., General Bankers received 60,000/-- dollars after receiving this letter but died because he tried to break it. Phillippines General received a copy of this letter and failed to circulate it. He died after six days. General ... breaking our chain was sacked. But General Choudary was appointed as Chief of Army staff on the fourth day of receiving the letter.
The letter is type-written and cyclostyled. It bears no date, though the letter is marked.
(Sd.) Sri Satya Saibaba.
St. Puttaparti.
I doubt whether the letter was originally signed by him, for, at the outset, there is an invocation to 'Saibaba' which may refer to another Saibaba or imply himself.
Evidently the contents of the letter play upon the gullibility of weak minds. Instead of helping and educating people to grow strong in will, this letter weakens the mind with threats of curses which is sheer nonsense. If the letter were properly signed and address given, the cases of General Bankers, U.S.A. and Phillippines General could be verified and the hoax exposed. 1, for one, have deliberately, broken the "chain" and what evil has happened to me in these four months? If something happens to me much later, it will be silly to connect the two.
Nevertheless it is a crime on society in so far as it serves to frighten people and to weaken their minds with anonymous fears. I openly invite the attention of Sri Satya Saibaba of Puttaparti to this social crime, because the letter is circulated in his name. Let him either deny the authorship of the letter or own the guilt of weakening the minds of his fellow men,
The same Sri Satya Saibaba is accredited with performing miracles. So I addressed the following letter to him.
June 2, '69.
Dear Friend,
Namaste. It is a pleasure to meet those who often go to you. They tell me of your acts of generosity. Indeed you have noble ideals and a great heart. But I am unable to agree with those who tell me that you perform "miracles" by producing ashes, trinkets etc. from empty hands. I call them just sleight-of-hand exhibited by jugglers. I am aware that I should not hazard such an opinion without personal verification of the same. But I maintain my stand, as I verified similar claims of "miracles" in others. I hope I shall be wrong in your case. So may I request you, in the interests of truth to give me an appointment and ample opportunity to verify the "miracle" attributed to you and to enlighten myself et first and then public on this claim.
Hoping to be favoured with an opportunity for the inquiry,
Sincerely yours,
GORA
I have not yet received the reply. Let the public take cognizance of these crimes on society and become alert to prevent their perpetration and to punish the criminals.
(13 October 1969)
unquote
FOOT NOTE: It is not necessary to mention that there was no response to the above simple request of Mr.Gora - after all who would like to be "exposed ' particularly when even the educated well meaning individuals are prepared to believe simple tricks as miracles .
Andries 171
08-28-2001 05:13 AM
Edited by author 08-28-2001 05:20 AM
I sincerely hope that SSB and his accomplices will now get arrested very soon and that the administration of the schools and charity activities will be taken over by a council appointed by the Indian government.
Andries 170
08-28-2001 03:05 AM
Edited by author 08-28-2001 04:55 AM
re 160 The article in the Times has been copied to the national Dutch newspaper 'Trouw', dated 28 Aug. 2001.
Hari Sampath 169
08-28-2001 03:03 AM
All the newst stories have been added under "recent news and developments' on the website
http://www.sathyasaivictims.com
Hari Sampath
168 08-28-2001 02:14 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-28-2001 02:35 AM
Sunrise 167
08-28-2001 01:37 AM
Edited by author 08-28-2001 01:45 AM
The five articles are now linked on Sunrise on the BREAKING NEWS page. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Two articles have been moved from Breaking News to "What's really going on with sai baba? (Outer Plane): The letter from the student in India and the discussion by Suresh Balaraman et.al. about India.
Terrie 166 08-28-2001 12:14 AM Ref #164 AMEN!!
Balaraman Suresh 164
08-27-2001 09:51 PM
Hari, May the light of truth be always be with you and protect you
Suresh
Hari Sampath 163
08-27-2001 09:18 PM
The Hindustan Times and Times of India are two newspapers widely read and respected in India.
Times of India has a number of SB devotees on its board, including PN Bhagawathi, SB trust member. Looks like even they have decided to run this story.
Several journalists in India as well as in USA are in touch with me today, and there is a real lot going on in India now.
More to come very soon, the next few days are going to be real exciting, I shall update periodically.
Hari Sampath.
carlos 162
08-27-2001 08:31 PM
way to go hari!!!!!!! , you told me so. God will reward your hard work.
god bless
Terrie 161
08-27-2001 07:47 PM
Edited by author 08-27-2001 07:50 PM
Hari, I am jumping up and down with joy!!! And more to come yet!! I guess I'll have to believe whatever you say from now on.
Hope to see all these articles linked to sunrise and saivictims before the end of the day. And also the Dutch site.
Do you happen to know if these sites are accessed in India, esp. by the sai org people??
Hari Sampath 160
08-27-2001 07:17 PM
The Five stories today :
The Times ( three stories)
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001295442,00.html
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001295443,00.html
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,7-2001295208,00.html
The Hindustan Times
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/280801/detfro06.asp
Times Of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/article...asp?art_id=29169296
Hari.
Terrie , Are you happy ??? I was telling you a few days back, just to wait for 2 weeks !! But you ain't seen nothin' yet.... just wait for one more week, and there is lots more from where these come from :-)
Hari Sampath 159
08-27-2001 06:59 PM
One more article in The Times:
Oh Boy this is SENSATIONAL !!!!!
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,7-2001295208,00.html
4 stories in ONE DAY !!! I feel as if I had just won the Lotto !!!
Hari.
Hari Sampath 158 08-27-2001 06:56 PM
More news stories are appearing everywhere :
Hindustan Times has carried the story on their first page.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/280801/detfro06.asp
There is a second story in The Times.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001295443,00.html
Along with Times of India carrying the story, this is turning out into a sensational week for the SB expose !!
His nemesis is catching up, it is the begning of the end .
I am getting enquiries and phone calls from many journalists from all over the world, this is snowballing into a HUGE one. CHEERS !!!
Love,
Hari Sampath
Terrie 157
08-27-2001 05:13 PM
Edited by author 08-27-2001 05:14 PM
From the Times of India article:
"The newspaper says more than 500 British schools are being taught according to "Sai Baba-influenced educational programmes". It says the programmes are promoted by two charities, the Sathya Sai Education in Human Values Trust UK and the Human Values Foundation."
And here is a BIG problem, it seems to me. The principles of the EHV (human values) program are very good for children. And yet these values are now linked to the one we call the false god, a molester of children. It's the same mixture of truth and falsehood found in ssb's discourses over the years.
Is it an wonder that the millions who remain ssb devotees would feel very confused over this issue??
I think I remember "way back when" that at first when teachers wanted to begin EHV classes, they were not supposed to mention sb's name. Then later on they were told they had to mention the connection to sb. My memory might be really faulty here. Can any long-time devotees help with the facts?? Marswalker? Sparrow? Tony? Anyone else?
It's really sad that real human values might have to be discarded in education because they happen to be connected to a person who molests children.
Reality Check 156
08-27-2001 05:06 PM
Times of India called David Bailey the former 'right hand man' of Sai Baba! Dont they bother checking the facts before going to print?
Sunrise 155
08-27-2001 03:56 PM
Edited by author 08-27-2001 04:24 PM
Thanks logic_gu, Tony and Hari!! The articles are now linked to the Sunrise Breaking News page. FAST reporting there!! It's the 28th in India today.
Balaraman Suresh 154
08-27-2001 02:41 PM
Yeah,whoooopeee whooopeee wooooo woooooo,i second that Hari. :)
Hari Sampath 153
08-27-2001 02:12 PM
Dear All,
The Times, probably one of the world's oldest and most conservative newspapers, has published an article on Sai Baba .
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001295442,00.html
I guess now we could call Sai Baba a pedophile "OFFICIALLY" :-)
Hari Sampath.
Tony O'Clery 152 08-27-2001 12:53 PM
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001295442,00.html
Tony O'Clery 151
08-27-2001 12:51 PM
MONDAY AUGUST 27 Three die after putting faith in guru BY DOMINIC KENNEDY
logic_gu 150
08-27-2001 12:45 PM
Latest news about CULTS like Sai Baba in Times Of India...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/article...asp?art_id=29169296
Sunrise 149
08-27-2001 11:49 AM
Tony, can you give links to the articles on this board or send the text to Sunrise?? We would put the articles on-line today.
MarsWalker108 148
08-27-2001 11:47 AM
Edited by author 08-27-2001 11:48 AM
Brother John, You wrote "With all do respect, Yogananda has not shown any evidence in his writing that he was "enlightened. "At best hes was a brilliant businessman, writer, and teacher, at a time when Americans were quite innocent in the ways of the east."
This seems to be an incredible statement on your part. How can you make such an assertion when you have not read, for example, his commentary and translation of the Gita intitled "God Talks To Arjunaa: The Bhagavad Gita" (SRF 1995).
A great deal of his writings and teachings are in his 3 years of weekly home study lessons and 3 years of what are named "Service Readings." It is very obvious that you have not read these. Have you heard some of his cassette tapes. I doubt it! I honestly believe you have not read his world famous classic, "Autobiography of a Yogi."
A great avatar or satguru who comes with a special mission also may come with advanced disciples to help him with the mission. I have given evidence of the advanced disiples of Yogananda by my various posts and you can find some examples on the site: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise.
By the way, there have been tens of thousands of letters of Yogananda devotees who have written SRF concerning the transformation effected in their lives by Yogananda's teachings. Some of these are written in Self-Realization magazine from time to time.
As previously stated, my motive for my posts concerning Yogananda is to give a framework to contrast and compare SSB witha recognized saints of modern time. I chose PY because I am familiar with his teachings and have met some of his direct disciples. I admit that, ideally. maybe one should compare ssb with Shirdi Sa Baba, for example.
In my opinion, you have shown by your statements that you do not do even basic research before making assertions You thus do not have credibility. It would help to give some references when you give a viewpiont. I suspect that you only trying to disrupt.
Love, Dennis Hanisch
Tony O'Clery 147
08-27-2001 11:46 AM
New expose in London Times and Vancouver Sun today, about 3 boys who committed suicide, one at least talked of his molestation by sb.
Balaraman Suresh 146
08-27-2001 11:12 AM
Dear Anthony,
Take care and be back soon
Regards
Suresh.
Andries 145
08-27-2001 04:51 AM
Ref 140 Terrie, The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Sunrise 144
08-27-2001 02:14 AM
Ref #142:
Anthony, we've just adjusted the candle page. If you're on-line, try it again, but be sure to go off the site and then re-enter again...or click on refresh for the candle page. Netscape has problems with our links sometimes. The candle page is changed so the only link now is the candle, not the words.
Anthony Thomas 143
08-27-2001 01:47 AM
Terrie, A Sparrow, Andries, Questor, Suresh, Said, Hari, bhakthan, Marswalker, Kyra, Carlos, Tony, David Paul, Andries K.D, Sunrise, and the others.
Thank you for your sharing and your caring.
I am away now for a while, but the board is in good hands - yours.
Anthony Thomas 142
08-27-2001 01:46 AM
Sunrise
The affirmation I passed you was up on the old Keenan- board. Its unusual, but it seems to help.
By the way, RE your site - Want more Information and Evidence? and Click on the Candle Below. I can't get either of these links to work today.
Sunrise 141
08-27-2001 12:08 AM
There are some new documents on Sunrise. There's a powerful affirmation that Anthony sent to Sunrise to help ex-devotees detach from sb. Anyone who's having trouble might want to try the affirmation. (on the HOPE page)
There are two new articles by Elena A. Hartgering, one which discusses Ram Das Awle's Sex-A Clear View site and one very interesting article on the source of sai baba's powers. That article will interest devotees and ex-devotees alike. Elena's articles are referenced from several pages on Sunrise, but you can read them both from the TEACHINGS page.
Most of the posts form Anthony's old QT board are posted, but there are still a few to go on Sunrise. Also, the first 100 messages from this board will be posted soon.
The new board started by Suresh Balaraman is linked to the Sunrise DISCUSSION page. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise
Terrie 140
08-26-2001 11:43 PM
Andries, what's the LTTE?
Andries 139
08-26-2001 08:44 PM
Re 138, 137 Anyone posting under his/her real name please don't get involved in discussions about the LTTE.
Ganaga Sabay 138
08-26-2001 08:17 PM
We will hunt you down Fr.John,for bringing dis-repute to our organisation.
137
08-26-2001 06:40 PM
Ref 131. Partial credit to my father who is a pharmacist by profession.
135
08-26-2001 04:35 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-26-2001 09:46 PM
Terrie 134
08-26-2001 03:26 PM
Ref #131: Yes, Andries, real good! Like most of what you post here.
Terrie 133
08-26-2001 03:24 PM
Anthony, I can't tell you how encouraging your post #127 was! It does seem that the expose' efforts that make lasting impressions come from friends that people know. I have seen the topic of sb come up in the oddest ways at the oddest times, and then there's the chance to talk with devotees.
Hearing about the family that received several copies of The Findings reminded me that we should all have paper copies of several important documents at hand to give to people. Sure, it will cost a bit, but it may help toward freeing souls. What's more important...a few dollars or helping someone to get free of the false god? Lots of people don't check the Internet, and they need something to hold in their hands to read.
So I'm off to the copy machine....
Anthony Thomas 132
08-26-2001 02:56 PM
Good one, Andries
Andries 131
08-26-2001 02:00 PM
New Religious Movements are like new medicines. They look good because the side effects are unknown.
130
08-26-2001 10:08 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-26-2001 11:30 AM
Balaraman Suresh 129
08-26-2001 09:34 AM
Dear Anthony,
You are right,i am glad that you are hell bent on the expose of Parthi Baba,and more the merrier.
Anthony Thomas 128
08-26-2001 02:36 AM
Edited by author 08-26-2001 04:09 AM
Just a quick note to people who get these board messages sent direct to their email. You only get it as it first goes up. If the sender then decides to correct or add to it a minute later (as often happens), you don't get it again. So you don't see the changes. It may be good for those websites who add these emailed posts to their sites, to take them straight from this board instead.
Anthony Thomas 127
08-26-2001 02:09 AM
The momentum of this expose of sb continues to grow. I get more and more feedback from around the world as the word spreads. I spoke to a family of 5 devotees the other day who told me they had received 5 copies of The Findings from different friends. They ignored the first lot but in the end they thought they had better read it so they could defend whatever was being said.
However, after they read it, they sat down among themselves and starteddiscussing it and without each of them realising it, the others had doubts which they had suppressed over the years. In the end, the whole family decided to leave. And they had been really active in their local organisation. I had really thought they would grow old and die still attached to him - but fortunately their friends cared enough to inform them of the truth. I have known them for many years. Although pretending how wonderful it is to have their guru, their life has not reflected this at all. They have suffered one disaster after another and to be honest never seemed to laugh or look happy.
It is growing. It will all end. It won't go on forever. As long as people who already know the truth of this 'guru, ' continue to care enough for their fellow humans, to do what they can to spread it. It doesn't need 24 hours a day. If we just combine whatever actions feel right connected with the expose, into all our other life activities. I am about to have a ball spreading it far and wide right now. The more people you pass it on to, the more people end up hearing. Tell anyone and everyone. I have a ball. "Did you hear about this guru guy in India that has millions of followers...........etc. They don't need to be devotees or even have heard of him tell them anyway. In the end so many people will know, that all the devotees will start listening.
Anthony Thomas 126
08-26-2001 02:08 AM
Edited by author 08-26-2001 08:29 AM
Checker1 re 121
I wonder where you get the idea that I haven't been to India? I have several times, and its a wonderful place. Last visit, I attended one of the 12 holy places for the Shivartri Festival and humbly joined the Saddhus each day for morning contemplation as the dawn rose. (not sure of correct spellings). Slept under the stars for a few weeks and had a wonderul time.
And why would anyone need to have been to India or be of Indian nationality to be concerned with something that affects Indians? If that were the case, human rights for the world would go out the window. And in the instance of sb, all nationalities are affected - which begs the question even more - what is the relevance of having been to India.
Fortunately you don't have to be a devotee of anything in order to speak out. It is a silly argument really, isn't it. On that basis you would have to work for Monsanto Chemicals in order to speak out against genetically modified seed. Or be a Catholic or Protestant before you could try and bring peace to Ireland or be an Arab or Israeli to speak out for peace in Israel.
You only need to really care about your fellow human beings, whether you know them or not. My payment for this board would be the helping to inform and consequently freeing from the clutches of sb - even one person. That is worth everything. People are so precious -ALL of them. Even sb. But although all people are precious gifts of God, that does not prevent the rightness of exposing the rapists, thieves and murderers in our world.
Brother John 122
08-25-2001 08:20 PM
Dear Andries, you asked: "What is mukti?"
Liberation from the illusion of duality, and the sense of personal doership.
Fr. John
Andries 120
08-25-2001 05:25 PM
Dear Brother John,
What is mukti?
Anthony Thomas 119
08-25-2001 11:03 AM
LOVE
There is no difficulty that enough love - will not conquer; No disease that enough love - will not heal;
No door that enough love - will not open;
No gulf that enough love - will not bridge;
No wall that enough love - will not throw down;
No sin that enough love - will not redeem .....
It makes no difference -
How deeply seated may be - the trouble,
How hopeless the - outlook,
How muddled the - tangle,
How great the - mistake -
A sufficient realization of love - will dissolve - it all ....
If only you could love - enough,
you would be the - happiest and most powerful being in the world ....
Emmet Fox
Anthony Thomas 118
08-25-2001 11:00 AM
Cute, eh! Angel fire mentions the three boons and Brother John says let us hear them. A real play going on!
No, I do not know them and have no desire to know any of the stolen teachings portrayed by the child molester. The doubting devotees reading this board will already know the teachings of their swami, so they won't need them either. Thanks anyway.
Andries
Very noble but why do you think Brother John doubts his guru? Certainly not from anything he has ever posted. He is not middle of the road either, or he wouldn't be here doing the mud slinging.
Angelfire.
I have seen it a few times at least. Someone will have the speech he made in the ashram warning everyone not to listen to the rumours about him.
I can see the tone of the board detiorating into a devotee slinging match, so it ends here.
Re 112
Wrong. It is totally regimented - with ONE leader. And heaven help anyone who defies him. His own words are something to the effect that 'they will never receive swami's love again and will be banished'. Sound like God to you?
I would like to know on what basis or authority you make that statement. I suspect you may be off base with that comment and you are reacting.
I think Fr John is correct, one may come and go, as do I indeed come and go. nor do I stand condemmned.
You quote vaguely 'they will never receive swami's love again and will be banished' .. can you cite your source for this?
Are you aware of the three boons of the Sai Avatar?
Andries 113
08-25-2001 06:31 AM
Edited by author 08-25-2001 06:32 AM
Dear Brother John,
At least I want to congratulate you with your courage to come to this board. I assume you're a doubting devotee.
I didn't have the courage to look at all the internet stories when I was an ardent devotee and tried to suppress all doubts which I consider now with hindsight psychologically very unhealthy.
In spite of that the 'stories' kept coming to me from reliable sources that I can't reveal here unfortunately.
Kind Regards, Andries.
Anthony Thomas 112
08-25-2001 05:31 AM
Brother John re post 101
You said....
........."The Sai organization .........It's not a regimented controlled system of leaders and followers. "........... Wrong. It is totally regimented - with ONE leader. And heaven help anyone who defies him. His own words are something to the effect that 'they will never receive swami's love again and will be banished'. Sound like God to you?
.............. It's not a labor union ............
True, the souls he has control over don't have the luxury of a union to help get them out - until they re-unite with the union of God.
..........it matters not "how long" one has been "a devotee".......... You have either not been reading the posts or have simply tried to find a point to create your message. The comment of 27 years was in relation to a statement that 'not many westerners have been devotees for 20/25/30 years. '
...............All are free to stay or leave at any time.....No attempt to coral or control....... Free to leave... I think not! There is a total attempt to control. The problem you have is that you are firmly fixed into the physical aspect and not looking at the psychological or energetic aspect of the total control factor present.
...........It is definitly not a cult. ..........
You are joking! The definition of a cult isn't 'an organisation that one can't leave'. You need to examine what a cult is, because you are in one.
............There are some who have lived in Putaparthi for 40 years and more, and have not learned anything. The passage of time does not, of itself, confer (or imply), Wisdom......... So, really! He is not all that good at teaching wisdom then!!?
..............Wisdom comes 'By Grace'. It has nothing to do with the passing of time. ........ Not true. If time were not a relevant factor in learning in the physical dimension, it would not exist.
...............In God's eye all are equal, no one is nearer or dearer............... Thank heavens this is true - in God's eyes. But not in sb's eyes. Somehow the richer one is, the nearer and dearer they become. Even physically I hear they get selected to be brought closer to him - front row stuff.
................If an ignorant person worships a rock, truly believing it to be God, God does not mock him. .............. But in this case, it would show great wisdom to be worshipping a rock instead!!!!
..........Whether or not it is clear to you, the universe is unfolding as it should.......... It is very clear to me and it is true. Have you considerd that the expose of sb is exactly that - the universe unfolding as it should. And why are you then getting involved in attempts to prevent that unfolding.
...........there are no accidents.
No there aren't - if you really understand what 'no accidents' mean. It means that because the individual makes choices in the moment, nothing happens accidentally.
........Nothing is broken and nothing needs fixing............... Many hearts are broken, but people are tough and they will recover.
.....................Look on the bright side and enjoy your life and time. ..............
I only look on the bright side and my life is a sucession of joyful moments. And with the Grace of God - may it continue to be so.
.........Nothing improves with the passing of time, (ashes to ashes, dust to dust). .... Everything improves with the passing of time. One becomes enlightened through the passing of time. No doubt whatsoever.
.........Don't waste time........
Why not?
.................Please do not delete.......
I am delighted to leave your post up. Perhaps you are now not so delighted! At least this time you didn't try the 'I dare you to leave it up'.
111
08-25-2001 04:06 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-25-2001 10:00 PM
bhakthan 110
08-25-2001 03:42 AM
Edited by author 08-25-2001 03:43 AM
Dear Brother John
Ref 108
What we were discussing were not opinions or exchange of our messages as " a show"for entertainment. Irrespctive of your religious beliefs or your faith ,blind or otherwise in an invisible God or any "avatar " ( in any form ),the innocent victim of any abuse cannot be asked or advised to bear it with equanmity in name of unity of human soul/god. Surely we need God's blessings to understand this.
109
08-25-2001 03:03 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-25-2001 10:00 PM
108
08-25-2001 01:06 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 08-25-2001 10:00 PM
bhakthan 107
08-25-2001 12:13 AM
REF: 106
I have never come across a more abusive interpretation of the Hindu concept of Atman and God-than from Brother John, Well he can extend his own interpretation to justify Murder,Rape,Theft- after all according to his own interpretation the doer/rceipient( there is no word " victim"in his vocabulary)are all one -why bother to have any system of law and Punishment -accept all abuse as ordained and bestowed by Divine -sometime God(s)also appear as Avatars and tend to abuse some other humanbeings -and latter must be advised to bear the abuse and the agony/shame in light of "Unity of souls"theory .
Hinduism degenerated precisely because of this type of(mis)interpretation to justify the castesystem and other forms of exploitation. I thought the degeneration stopped after all the effortsof Hindus like Vivekanannda, Gandhi- it does not appear so and it may well continue into the new millenium with such crude interpretations to justify the abnormal behaviour of any individual howsoever exalted he may be.
Brother John 106
08-24-2001 08:43 PM
Edited by author 08-24-2001 08:45 PM
The Upanashads declare that: All is Brahman and there is nothing other than Brahman.
Therefore my question, "who was molested by whome".
At the phenomenon level we can say "He did this or that to me'. However at the fundamental level of unicity, all is Brahman, (other synonyms: Atma, God,..) therefore it is Brahman, (or God if you wish) that is the doer AND the receiver. It is man's inherent sense of personal doership, that leads him to believe that he is a seperate entity, with power to act on his own, and effect change. In fact God is the only doer and the only recipient. So who was molested by whome??? Wake up and smell the roses.
With all do respects, Yogananda has not shown any evidence in his writing that he was "enlightened". At best he was a brilliant businessman, writer, and teacher, at a time when Americans were still quite innocent in the ways of the east.
Andries 105
08-24-2001 10:33 AM
Edited by author 08-24-2001 10:42 AM
Re 104 Dear Brother John,
Here is a statement from CESNUR, the leading academic NRM network in Europe, based in Italy with affiliated academics in the USA. Note that they are considered as cult apologetics by some counter cult and anti cult movements.
'Consumers of spiritual goods should not enjoy less protection than consumers in other fields. And when suicide, homicide, child abuse or rape are condoned or promoted, we urge a strong application of criminal laws.'
from http://www.cesnur.org/about.htm#ing
Kind regards, Andries
Brother John 104
08-24-2001 04:59 AM
Marswalker wrote: "In my opinion we can't justify the molestations".
If God is the one primary stuff, all there is, and there is nothing (no-thing) that is NOT God,....
Then pray tell,... WHO got molested by WHO,.. ??
Fr John
Andries 103
08-24-2001 03:38 AM
Dear Putaipandit & Senior don-ki-hotei & All,
Could you please refrain from using slang? Not because I feel offended but because I have difficulty understanding it. It's not in my dictionary.
I am probably not the only person on this board who never lived in an English speaking country.
Thanks in advance & kind regards
Brother John 101
08-24-2001 12:18 AM
Anthony Thomas wrote: (ref 89)
"Glen Meloy was a devotee for 27 years, I believe."
The Sai organization is a very loose organization. It's not a regimented controlled system of leaders and followers.
In one's relationship to Sathya Sai Baba, there is no seniority system. It's not a labor union and it matters not "how long" one has been "a devotee". People come and people go. All are free to stay or leave at any time as they see fit. There is no pressure. No attempt to coral or control. It is definitly not a cult. If glen melloy called himself "a devotee", for 27 years, that is glen's self assesment.
There are some who have lived in Putaparthi for 40 years and more, and have not learned anything. The passage of time does not, of itself, confer (or imply), Wisdom.
Wisdom comes 'By Grace'. It has nothing to do with the passing of time.
If glen melloy, was a "devotee" for 27 years, or 127 years, it means Nothing. There is NO SENIORITY. One who has been "a devotee" for 27 years is no different from someone who has been a devotee for 27 days.
In God's eye all are equal, no one is nearer or dearer.
If an ignorant person worships a rock, truly believing it to be God, God does not mock him. God considers only the person's devotion. Seniority it not a consideration.
Relax. Whether or not it is clear to you, the universe is unfolding as it should. It could not be otherwise, there are no accidents. Nothing is broken and nothing needs fixing. Look on the bright side and enjoy your life and time. Nothing improves with the passing of time, (ashes to ashes, dust to dust). Don't waste time.
May God bless you all,
Fr. John
Please do not delete